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We should scrap tuition loans and have a graduate tax watch

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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    If you think it should be free look what's happened to Scotland vs England since 2008. It's actually gone backwards while disadvantaged students in England have made good progress.
    Yes it does feel 'like a tax' but there is a dishonesty around what we're calling it. That's why I think we should call it what it is with some slight reform.
    I actually didn't know that was the case, but it's really interesting. I take back what I said in that case, I'd have to do more research before debating this.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    **** that it should be free like in the old days, hell my parents were paid to go [well dad not mum as shes a foreigner] simply scrap the micky mouse subjects tht are for idiots/lazy/those who just want a piece of paper like film studies/drama/dance/brewery/sociology etc. make them and their ilk be made to be privately finnced it will weed out those who are going to uni to skate by on doing jack all, those who will likely never pay a penny back and make degrees worth something again... a 2:1 is worth jack **** these days lets fce it.
    This is a bit ranty but I do agree that degrees that the economy values should somehow be subsided. To some extent they are, for example lab based degrees cost far more than 9k a year. There is also bursaries for teaching & nurses etc.

    (Original post by londonundergrad)
    When I graduate I'll owe a total of £74,012. Even if I get 40k a year from the day I start earning, I will still never earn enough to pay it back before it gets written off after 30 years. (30 years of paying £142 a month, which is what people earning 40k pay, will still leave me with £22,862 of my loan written off after 30 years). It's obviously very unlikely that I will earn 40k from the get-go. It is very likely that more than the £22k will be written off.

    Obviously I am elated about this. If I was the government, however, I wouldn't be.
    I'm in a similar boat. My debts will be around 60k. Of which I think about 40 will be paid off the other 20 (though this would rise to much higher) will be written off.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Actually, when the fees went up, less people were able to afford them. The end result was that the amount of money coming in from tuition fees when they were £9k was exactly the same as the amount coming in when they were £3k. They tripled tuition fees and made no money from it. A great testament to the shocking incompetence of our current government.
    The bottom of this article is qute good on the cost to taxpayer
    https://fullfact.org/education/have-...eforms-worked/
    My view is the government will keep changing the rules - as with the 21k threshold - until they in. Thus frustrating many more people.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    I actually didn't know that was the case, but it's really interesting. I take back what I said in that case, I'd have to do more research before debating this.
    It's one of those things that intuitively makes no sense. That having no fees actually is a very regressive policy. Kind of like with privatizing the trains. As they are mainly used by the middle class the disadvantaged lose out again.
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    (Original post by londonundergrad)
    When I graduate I'll owe a total of £74,012. Even if I get 40k a year from the day I start earning, I will still never earn enough to pay it back before it gets written off after 30 years. (30 years of paying £142 a month, which is what people earning 40k pay, will still leave me with £22,862 of my loan written off after 30 years). It's obviously very unlikely that I will earn 40k from the get-go. It is very likely that more than the £22k will be written off.

    Obviously I am elated about this. If I was the government, however, I wouldn't be.
    I owe £25k and am hoping to get it paid off before it gets written off. It's still a huge sum of money though hey? x
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    (Original post by john2054)
    I owe £25k and am hoping to get it paid off before it gets written off. It's still a huge sum of money though hey? x
    How do you only owe 25k?!
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    (Original post by londonundergrad)
    How do you only owe 25k?!
    It's because i first started my degree in 2009, and was able to get the prices frozen from then x
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    (Original post by john2054)
    It's because i first started my degree in 2009, and was able to get the prices frozen from then x
    Jealous
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    (Original post by elizahughes)
    Why is it that Eastern Europeans are being bashed for living in the UK and bashed for leaving? Everyone is entitled to a good education, or among the best in the world as you say, regardless of where they come from. Besides, international students have different fees globally, hence why English students have to pay for Scottish universities which are free domestically. And international students pay larger fees, so without them the quality of university education would certainly decrease. I'm sure a lot of them also contribute to the economy whilst they're here as well through working, and I'm sure a few end up living here (contributing 4 times more than they gain, statistically)
    Who are you to say that when you are not paying for it?

    Do you go into a restaurant and load up on food for you and your friends before passing the bill onto everybody in the restaurant?

    THINGS COST MONEY. NOT YOUR MONEY. TAXPAYERS MONEY. AND FUTURE TAXPAYERS WHO HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN BORN YET
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    (Original post by londonundergrad)
    When I graduate I'll owe a total of £74,012. Even if I get 40k a year from the day I start earning, I will still never earn enough to pay it back before it gets written off after 30 years. (30 years of paying £142 a month, which is what people earning 40k pay, will still leave me with £22,862 of my loan written off after 30 years). It's obviously very unlikely that I will earn 40k from the get-go. It is very likely that more than the £22k will be written off.

    Obviously I am elated about this. If I was the government, however, I wouldn't be.
    The government dont care, it is not their money.... its the peoples money. The government are supposed to be responsible with it.

    They will be on cushy pensions retired as millionaires soon and people will be crying about our debt and why we cant afford nice things
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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    With the recent furore over tuition loans, I've spent almost 5 minutes thinking about this and the answer: some form of progressive graduate tax.

    The current system is better than no fees, the evidence coming out of Scotland makes that obvious, but there are still major problems.

    1. Over the long term it's still going to cost the government about the same as having no fees, they've just shifted the costs to future governments

    2. Those who do an (economically) highly valued degree at a very highly reputable institution get well above their loan value while other do not get anywhere near. Those who do well pay the loan of fast and end up paying much less than those who only do ok.

    3. It's creating a system where student do not feel uni is worth it. They look at the cost (average now 45k) vs the prospective jobs and this makes them unhappy.

    I think some form of graduate tax starting around 18k and being circa 1% so everyone pays something and building to 3-4% for high earners. This could also finish after so many years.
    It's already a grad tax.

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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    With the recent furore over tuition loans, I've spent almost 5 minutes thinking about this and the answer: some form of progressive graduate tax.

    The current system is better than no fees, the evidence coming out of Scotland makes that obvious, but there are still major problems.

    1. Over the long term it's still going to cost the government about the same as having no fees, they've just shifted the costs to future governments

    2. Those who do an (economically) highly valued degree at a very highly reputable institution get well above their loan value while other do not get anywhere near. Those who do well pay the loan of fast and end up paying much less than those who only do ok.

    3. It's creating a system where student do not feel uni is worth it. They look at the cost (average now 45k) vs the prospective jobs and this makes them unhappy.

    I think some form of graduate tax starting around 18k and being circa 1% so everyone pays something and building to 3-4% for high earners. This could also finish after so many years.
    My teacher said that it is basically a graduate to max because you pay it off bit by bit and the money gets automatically taken away from your bank account so you never really see it
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    Would this affect all graduates or only those from now on?
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    My teacher said that it is basically a graduate to max because you pay it off bit by bit and the money gets automatically taken away from your bank account so you never really see it
    Gets taken out of your paycheck before money hits your account

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Gets taken out of your paycheck before money hits your account

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    That's what I meant to say aha
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    Doesnt this then become a tax on success? How do you know the degree was responsible, when it may be down to someones hard work?
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Who are you to say that when you are not paying for it?

    Do you go into a restaurant and load up on food for you and your friends before passing the bill onto everybody in the restaurant?

    THINGS COST MONEY. NOT YOUR MONEY. TAXPAYERS MONEY. AND FUTURE TAXPAYERS WHO HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN BORN YET
    I have the right to say it as education runs much deeper than economics. It has transformed the way society runs and the more education the better. Not all education has to be overly expensive, and it doesn't all have to be through university, but regardless, education is something everyone should have the right to, and to deny them of that is to deny them of other freedoms as education is basically the key to doing anything with your life.

    And just because I am not in the government, it doesn't mean I'm not contributing to society through working - I have left school so I will be paying taxes, I'm not really sure where you got that impression from, and I've been paying NI for years. Anyone can join the government if they want to, it's not some gift given from god. They are elected to reflect public interest, and as a citizen, I have every right to have an opinion on it
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    (Original post by john2054)
    As someone who has just completed a five year degree, i can tell you with some confidence that the number of 'white boys' at uni, is dwarfed by the number of foreign students and 'white' girls. Thanks again
    This was literally the point I was making. I'm saying that through making university more affordable, we can help to raise this number because the education gap is surprisingly wide when it comes to class, and particularly among white boys, so free university wouldn't only benefit international students - although I don't know why you'd be opposed to anyone receiving a valuable education regardless of their background
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    2. I think that's fair, though. There's an incentive to do a degree that's going to contribute to the economy, and those degrees are also often the ones that are going to provide well-rounded graduates that can think critically.

    3. Honestly, I think I'd be equally put-off by a tax. The system as it is right now feels much like a tax anyway.

    But I'm of the opinion that higher education should be free, anyway. Graduates bring more money in than it costs to educate them. Higher education benefits all of us, just like primary education, so I don't see why it shouldn't be funded. If anything, we need to encourage more people to get degrees.

    Any statistics or evidence to back up the bit in bold?

    I strongly disagree with we need more people at universities. The graduate market is already exceptionally saturated.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    Well if we pay more ourselves then the gov't and taxpayers pay less.

    The rich don't like to pay taxes and the gov't obviously won't want to keep paying for those who need university paid for.
    Can't we enforce laws that mean rich people need to pay tax?! I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet unless it isn't possible

    Also, I personally feel like the government want to make university less affordable so less people go, as degrees are becoming less of something that stands out on a CV, and more something that's required - so the actual educational standard isn't affected by the fee change?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    I know your pain, my parents make enough that I get a maintenance loan that won't cover my accommodation, but not enough that they'll be able to offer any financial support I don't think it's really related to fees, but I believe the maintenance loan should cover the full cost of living. People should be able to focus on their education and personal growth outside of it.
    It's not fully relevant, but I was thinking about it in terms of this - I personally want to take a gap year to work full time so I don't have to take out a maintenance loan, and if tuition fees were lower, I don't think I'd feel the same way, because so many people are alrrady calculating how much interest they'll be charged - so it does add to the extra stress

    And yeah it's so ****, my parents can afford it, but my sister will be at university at the same time as me (which the government haven't considered) and then my twin siblings will go as soon as she leaves, so it's still going to have a considerable effect even though someone's income may SEEM high - also, when you live in a major city everything is so much more expensive, especially mortgages, and I feel like the government don't take enough factors into consideration when it comes to loan entitlements
 
 
 
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