Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Why do leave voters keep saying the EU is undemocratic? Watch

    Offline

    7
    ReputationRep:
    Because it isn't (democratic).
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Undemocratic or lack of democracy or having a democratic deficit refers to the fact that the sovereignty of member states is diminished in favour of that of whole EU, Also in the past legislation was passed by the government which is elected democratically by the people. Now EU commission initiates laws which will be applicable into the UK, some will have direct effect and those who initiate these to be laws are not elected by the UK population. So this loss in the UK's sovereignty will often critised by those against the EU.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    ...Every constituency gets an MP.
    And we get MEPs, a seat (and veto) on the European Council plus opt outs and rebates.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Davij038)
    And we get MEPs, a seat (and veto) on the European Council plus opt outs and rebates.
    Is the ratio of constituents to MP close in to that of constituents to MEP?

    also "veto" lmao
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by nexttimeigetvpn)
    No one's saying it isn't undemocratic, but democracy is overrated.
    No, it really isn't.

    I trust some people in Brussels
    who are entirely unaccountable for the decisions they make that affect us on our behalf.

    How could you trust people you probably have never met or don't know any history of? (Sorry if I'm extrapolating a typical remain voter I find to you.)

    Curious, do you agree with the old adage "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely"?

    , who are out of the media spotlight, who aren't forced to bow to political pressure or media pressure to appease their supporters, to make laws rather than a labour or tory government. The EU laws have helped raise Europe-wide standards, and there isn't a single law that has been passed which is genuinely threatening, but we have this constant threat of 'changing human rights' by the tories over here, I don't know much about it to the core, but you get the point. The tories wanted to force all schools to become academies, and they're taxing higher on sugar - both for no particular reason other than to milk a bit of extra money somewhere down the line. Not to mention the life-damaging policies like raising tuition fees.
    And us remaining in the EU is suddenly going to get rid of these from our country?

    I think it can be argued on some occasions that the EU gives us more democracy and more rights by preventing our own government from making absurd laws - which I don't think wouldn't be expected of our current government.
    Can you give some examples and substantiate your claims?
    Remember we have MPs to represent us to keep that out.

    And you mentioned it yourself, the House of Lords, the royal family... unelected.
    I'll quote from OP.

    Criticism of those seemingly possible counter-arguments...
    1) Royal Assent has a track record of just being a formality.
    2) The House of Lords can only delay non-finance-related legislation for up to a year. The House of Lords is a revision chamber, and the UK has more pressing concerns about its quite democratic system.
    But so what? 'Undemocratic' is the new 'racism' or the new 'marxism' - words that people like you throw out into the crowd and everyone shies away from like its cancer. The truth is, it doesn't matter and its the least important issue on the table. What's more important is the economic implications a Brexit will have on us, farmers, fishermen, etc will lose out from the EU, our economy will shrink, we will have less influence on the world stage, we will be forced to accept EU-Britain trade deals without having control over them. The motto is "vote leave, take control" but the reality is we lose control if we leave, we step into the unknown with some vague hopes that we are able to adopt a Canada or Denmark style deal, well those things are explicitly far from ideal. We have people complaining about immigration, leaving the EU doesn't put the brakes on immigration, it just concentrates it to non-Eu immigrants.

    It is no wonder that the only four prominent buffoons who support a Brexit are the three tory rebels and Farage, three of whom likely don't even care about whether or not we leave and just want more tory power.
    I disagree with the rest, but I won't digress this thread at the moment and I have revision to be doing.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    2a-d The Commission is like the cabinet. The UK cabinet is not voted in. It is chosen. Well, obviously, the commisioner must act in the best interests of Europe. That would be like complaining, the Health Minister cannot build an extra hospital in his borough.
    The UK Cabinet represents a government and has to deliver on a manifesto on which its MPs were elected. The government (made up of MPs) has to submit itself to periodic re-election where they are held accountable for the delivery of their manifesto.

    If Cabinet Ministers underperform or behave inappropriately they are removed by the PM, because of the democratic pressure of having to seek re-election.

    Commissioners don't face any democratic pressure or accountability and they don't submit a manifesto of things they want to achieve which is decided on by the public.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    How does 10% of the vote share amount to very little? We have a hell of a lot more power in the EU than we have in deciding our own MPs.



    So true. Our elected government is systematically selling and destroying this country, while the EU has consistently introduced progressive, evidence-based legislation that benefits all of us. If the democratic government is going to tear the country apart for profit, while the undemocratic government is going to represent my interests fairly and make decisions that need to be made, of course I'd rather be ruled by the undemocratic government.
    Please read OP before you comment and reply further.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    Is the ratio of constituents to MP close in to that of constituents to MEP?
    No, but it's a step up as they make decisions on a larger level. Just as MPs aren't as devolved as local councillors

    [quote[
    also "veto" lmao[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, veto in some areas. QMV in others- but I see that as democratic. One member shouldn't hold the other 28 back and if they don't like it then they should leave. It draws a parallel with Scotland where let's not forget the UK government has a very different agenda to the SNP.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    Guys you know what the major problem is britain is right now ?
    the fact that the EU is undemocratic, they're the reason were failing you know...
    If we left, they will still trade with us cos even though theyre the largest trade block in the world, they need out cheese and cars !!!! and they won't put a tarif on it, cos were greatest bitiiiiiioooooonn.

    Honestly i can understand where leavers are coming from, and i could imagine myself being one, sadly. But the fact they cant explain how we weill carry on the day after we leave, and the fact many of their figure head have out right said, we would be worse off , if only for a few years. mean i would rather stay. ( its risk both ways but leaving leaves us worse off, and as a young person, who has to live what 60 years longer in the UK, i would prefer to remain; and 30 years on , when all the older people die, i wouldnt rather not be on the outside , while europe is close together ).
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    Is the ratio of constituents to MP close in to that of constituents to MEP?

    also "veto" lmao
    It's unrealistic and unnecessary to have thousands of MEP's.

    The veto was used in the not too distant past.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ocks-eu-treaty
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It's unrealistic and unnecessary to have thousands of MEP's
    Precisely, the democracy is too large and at that scale you can't have a functioning, representative democracy ergo we must leave and return to a reasonably sized one.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    1a) The UK only has 73 MEPs.
    1b) There are altogether 751 MEPs.
    1c) The UK only has 9.72% of the voting power. (73 / 751 x 100)
    1d) The UK population constitutes 12.74% of the EU population.
    Hahahaha wooow failed at the first hurdle. 751 - 73 = 724

    That means the rest of the EU has 724% of the total voting power whilst the UK has just 0.081%. How is that democratic mate?

    VOTE LEAVE
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    Precisely, the democracy is too large and at that scale you can't have a functioning, representative democracy ergo we must leave and return to a reasonably sized one.
    It's size fulfills it's purpose in conjunction with national parliaments. The fact they're elected by PR arguably makes them more representative of the electorate, the issue in the UK is low participation in European elections.

    The Indians manage democracy with a population of 1 billion+.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:


    yeah man i wonder why they call it undemocratic

    like ummm no?? the eu created the government????

    i have never seen any eu person claim they wanted to take away our government ever
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It's size fulfills it's purpose in conjunction with national parliaments. The fact they're elected by PR arguably makes them more representative of the electorate, the issue in the UK is low participation in European elections.

    The Indians manage democracy with a population of 1 billion+.
    i cant believe you used india as an example of a functioning democracy

    "Indeed, of the more than four-dozen officially recognized political parties currently operating in India, only three – the right-wing nationalist BJP and two far-left parties, Communist Party of India (CPI) and Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) – are not controlled by dynastic rulers or dominated by one charismatic leader."
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    i cant believe you used india as an example of a functioning democracy

    "Indeed, of the more than four-dozen officially recognized political parties currently operating in India, only three – the right-wing nationalist BJP and two far-left parties, Communist Party of India (CPI) and Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) – are not controlled by dynastic rulers or dominated by one charismatic leader."
    My point was that the size of the electorate is irrelevant.

    If you're planning to quote articles you should include the source.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/india-really-democracy-1553441
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well.....yes........I don't really see how that makes the EU Parliament undemocratic.
    Because our MEPs can't propose, repeal or amend legislation?

    I don't see how else I can say that.

    Yes...in the same way, the Health minister works in the favour of the UK. It doesn't make any sense to make the Commission working in national interests.
    That means we don't have a representative in the EC working in our interest.

    Are they even a representative of ours any longer? They're more a representative of the EU then.

    It doesn't change that allowing Bishops, rich donors and etc to vote on legislation is profoundly undemocratic, let alone change legislation.
    I thought I said they can only delay legislation and that they can only delay legislation not related to finance?

    Is that wrong?

    So they mostly can't vote, and they can't change legislation.
    Only (try) scrutinise and delay.

    (Original post by tanyapotter)
    Why should we have more representation than we already do? Why should we have more representation than other larger EU economies?
    I don't see how your post is applicable.

    (Original post by JamesN88)
    You can make the same argument that the UK is undemocratic based on the number of eligible voters per constituency. Inevitably there will always be some disparity to make sure everyone gets a voice. Based on this the Isle of Wight are getting screwed and should secede from the mainland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...constituencies

    Even If we had 12.74% of the seats I personally think some Eurosceptics would still be complaining.
    Because it is still undemocratic; read point 2.

    Namely point 2a) and 2b).

    2a) MEPs can't repeal or amend legislation.
    2b) MEPs can't propose legislation; MEPs don't have the right to legislative initiative.
    Point 1 was just one of the many ways in which the EU is undemocratic.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by NickLCFC)
    Hahahaha wooow failed at the first hurdle. 751 - 73 = 724

    That means the rest of the EU has 724% of the total voting power whilst the UK has just 0.081%. How is that democratic mate?

    VOTE LEAVE
    Brexit Maths
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JamesN88)
    My point was that the size of the electorate is irrelevant.
    It clearly isn't irrelevant, too large and it becomes impossible to represent people effectively without having an enormous and unwieldy parliament

    too many chefs spoil the soup

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Brexit Maths
    Remain """humour"""
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Before people make any more posts, please can they actually read the entirety of OP (original post.)

    It's kinda rude and offensive that I have to quote parts of that just because people never read it fully the first time.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.