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Staying in the EU is like a woman staying with an abusive husband Watch

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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Not being competitive is a good thing? There's a first.
    Competitive can mean more productive too, but in this case I meant in terms of overall trade with the rest of the world.
    Competition can be a good thing certainly. But I don't see it as an end in itself. Global capitalism has paradoxically lowered global inequality but raised domestic inequality. A genuine mixed economy seems to deliver the best model for humanity.

    Like I said, in decades of work the best deal the EU has managed is with South Korea.
    Best how?

    Australia has trade deals with the USA and India too. Geographically proximity is not a limit in the 21st century.
    Potentially no, but realistically trade is going to be greater with those countries with greater proximity to those close by with shared norms.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Competition can be a good thing certainly. But I don't see it as an end in itself. Global capitalism has paradoxically lowered global inequality but raised domestic inequality. A genuine mixed economy seems to deliver the best model for humanity.
    Even pinko socialists advocate being productive and competitive, and being able to trade with the world. Trade brings jobs and wealth. Dabble with social policies to fight inequality afterwards.

    (Original post by Davij038)
    Best how?
    South Korea is the largest and most lucrative economy the EU has managed to secure a free trade deal with.

    (Original post by Davij038)
    Potentially no, but realistically trade is going to be greater with those countries with greater proximity to those close by with shared norms.
    Yes, but there's no excuse not to have deals in place. Plus the EU is a five hundred million person, $16 trillion dollar market. The overall trade benefits should in theory trump in dealings with Australia or Canada.
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    This is so typical of the desparate scaremongering of the Brexit campaign.

    So now as well as being Hitler, the EU is a perpetrator of domestic violence? Pathetic attempt to appeal to emotion over substance and it is so typical of the far left and far right who are leading the Brexit camp.

    Deary me, if only we could have actual substantive discussion.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    This is so typical of the desparate scaremongering of the Brexit campaign.

    So now as well as being Hitler, the EU is a perpetrator of domestic violence? Pathetic attempt to appeal to emotion over substance and it is so typical of the far left and far right who are leading the Brexit camp.

    Deary me, if only we could have actual substantive discussion.
    totally disagree. Its a valid view point to discuss, whether its a good analogy or not is part of the discussion.

    When we are dealing with "The Future" - much of the argument has to really be emotional as its about where do your dreams of the future lay? There is nothing concrete per se it is about visions and dreams...

    As the bible says about discussing the future: "young men see visions and old men dream dreams" Acts of the Apostles Chapter 2 verse 17 (basically Christianity was the religion for the Urbanite YES - St Paul in particular made a point of making his version of Christianity to be multi-racial and multi-cultural).
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    Not a bad analogy
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    totally disagree. Its a valid view point to discuss, whether its a good analogy or not is part of the discussion.

    When we are dealing with "The Future" - much of the argument has to really be emotional as its about where do your dreams of the future lay? There is nothing concrete per se it is about visions and dreams...

    As the bible says about discussing the future: "young men see visions and old men dream dreams" Acts of the Apostles Chapter 2 verse 17 (basically Christianity was the religion for the Urbanite YES - St Paul in particular made a point of making his version of Christianity to be multi-racial and multi-cultural).
    Bringing in comparisons with domestic abuse is a deeply underhand tactic to try and appeal to emotion over substance and is pretty pathetic.

    So if you support the EU you support down stic violence? Leave analogies like this out of it.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Even pinko socialists advocate being productive and competitive, and being able to trade with the world. Trade brings jobs and wealth. Dabble with social policies to fight inequality afterwards.
    Why not do both? We have seen in Wall Street what the human desire for infinite profit has done. I'm not a complete Marxist- but ibthinknits fair that the market has been pushed and shaped areas in which it was never designed to cope.



    Trade does bring jobs and wealth. But I doubt free market competition is the most efficient means of production. And it certainly isn't the most ethical.

    A good example is my home town. We have 20 gambling joints and probably 40 fast food restaurants. Whilst they certainly bring in jobs and revenue, I think that the cost in terms of health and well being far outweigh the gains made by having those businesses.

    On the EU side, I think this explains the problem with the free trade brexiters model


    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...ws-of-gravity/
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Bringing in comparisons with domestic abuse is a deeply underhand tactic to try and appeal to emotion over substance and is pretty pathetic.

    So if you support the EU you support down stic violence? Leave analogies like this out of it.
    Disagree. Hitting hard is part and parcel of the art world. If you want people to stop and think you often need to hit hard with your image.
    http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/...clothes-t12571
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    Your comparisons are ridiculous lmao.
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    I do highly enjoy how "They won't do what us, 1 of 28(?) countries wants" and "We can only control 13% of the EU vote, not all of it" = undemocratic.

    Last I checked, everyone having a say was democracy, even if you're on the losing/minority side of it (which we're not, the vast majority of the time anyway)
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Why not do both? We have seen in Wall Street what the human desire for infinite profit has done. I'm not a complete Marxist- but ibthinknits fair that the market has been pushed and shaped areas in which it was never designed to cope.



    Trade does bring jobs and wealth. But I doubt free market competition is the most efficient means of production. And it certainly isn't the most ethical.

    A good example is my home town. We have 20 gambling joints and probably 40 fast food restaurants. Whilst they certainly bring in jobs and revenue, I think that the cost in terms of health and well being far outweigh the gains made by having those businesses.

    On the EU side, I think this explains the problem with the free trade brexiters model


    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...ws-of-gravity/
    That's not an argument against global trade. If you want Wall Street regulated, regulate Wall Street, don't prevent your businesses from selling in overseas markets. The degree that the market should be 'free' is also another argument entirely. The make up your home town high street certainly isn't relevant.

    That article's a straw man. No one advocating Brexit supports Minford's model. Everyone is saying we should negotiate new trade deals. Only the slow, lethargic EU seems to be unable to strike major international trade deals.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    So now as well as being Hitler, the EU is a perpetrator of domestic violence?
    you're a bit thick aren't you? I never said the EU was a perpetrator of domestic violence. I was making an analogy.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    I do highly enjoy how "They won't do what us, 1 of 28(?) countries wants" and "We can only control 13% of the EU vote, not all of it" = undemocratic.

    Last I checked, everyone having a say was democracy, even if you're on the losing/minority side of it (which we're not, the vast majority of the time anyway)
    what's more democratic for people in the UK: an election only in the UK or an election that's on a continent-wide basis? obviously it's far more democratic and representative to have the local-level election, not the one (the EU level one) where their representation is blurred out in favour of other EU countries' representation. how is a person in the UK going to be democratically represented like they are in a UK general election if their MEPs have far more people to represent compared to MPs? and how are MEPs elected for a clear agenda like MPs? how can it be as democratic if people don't even know (and arguably cannot possibly know, given not only the complexity but opaqueness) what they're voting for? will voting tory in the EU parliamentary election cause a certain person to become commission president? how can you possibly know when its not on the agenda?

    so ultimately, you cant tell me that the EU is anywhere near as democratic as the UK if you're saying "let's make our votes count for less in this one when our representation is diminished"
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    (Original post by jchampjchamp)
    Your comparisons are ridiculous lmao.
    not really. how're they ridiculous then?
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    9 people actually found this funny enough to rep?
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    what's more democratic for people in the UK: an election only in the UK or an election that's on a continent-wide basis? obviously it's far more democratic and representative to have the local-level election, not the one (the EU level one) where their representation is blurred out in favour of other EU countries' representation.
    So how about London decides to throw out the rest of the UK's votes, since they are blurring out London's representation in favor of far off counties.

    Oh but the UK part matters. Fair enough. But then admit you are a nationalist. Don't pretend it has anything to do with democracy.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    you're a bit thick aren't you? I never said the EU was a perpetrator of domestic violence. I was making an analogy.
    A stupid and pathetic anology. The EU is a free trade organisation, comparisons with domestic abuse are beyond absurd.

    If you tried hard enough you can analogise anything with something awful, hence Boris comparing the EU to Hitler.

    Analogies like this lower the standard of debate even further. Stop appealing to emotion and instead appeal to substantive issues. Problem is though that the far right and far left Only appeal to emotion and fear.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    So how about London decides to throw out the rest of the UK's votes, since they are blurring out London's representation in favor of far off counties.
    the UK doesn't vote on london-only issues though :|
    and if you're honestly going down that tired route of "oh you like democracy? so you'd like to have a ridiculously localised democracy?" - I wouldn't mind it, but its not purely about democracy for its own sake - it's about consent and legitimacy - if you have a stable community that feel like a political unit, then it is right for them to determine their affairs. if you don't have that (e.g. the EU, via very low turn outs) then how can you compare these things?

    but the UK part matters. Fair enough. But then admit you are a nationalist. Don't pretend it has anything to do with democracy.
    liberal nationalism = nation-states determining their own laws with independence and legitimacy. nation-states are stable democratic units, like I said, whereas massive alienated communities lumped into one group are not truly consensual communities of decision making. they don't connect with each other and hence it is wrong to force them to be a community where there are no community ties. that's different in a nation, which is an entity which develops over hundreds and hundreds of years, where you have that sense of relation and identification with others.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    what's more democratic for people in the UK: an election only in the UK or an election that's on a continent-wide basis? obviously it's far more democratic and representative to have the local-level election, not the one (the EU level one) where their representation is blurred out in favour of other EU countries' representation. how is a person in the UK going to be democratically represented like they are in a UK general election if their MEPs have far more people to represent compared to MPs? and how are MEPs elected for a clear agenda like MPs? how can it be as democratic if people don't even know (and arguably cannot possibly know, given not only the complexity but opaqueness) what they're voting for? will voting tory in the EU parliamentary election cause a certain person to become commission president? how can you possibly know when its not on the agenda?

    so ultimately, you cant tell me that the EU is anywhere near as democratic as the UK if you're saying "let's make our votes count for less in this one when our representation is diminished"
    You make a valid point. Hell, why are we even allowing democracy at a national level? Lets have it on a town/city basis - I don't want people from places like London and Manchester blurring out my vote!

    Actually, how about we vote at a household level? I can me prime minister of my house, my wife can be the opposition and the children can be civil servants.

    Your argument is ridiculous, the fact of the matter is that we get represented by the people we vote for on a country level and that we trust to do a good job on our behalf, much the same as the government we elect.

    Also, the current government got in on 36% of the vote, so I don't really see how that is significantly better or more democratic than us having 13% of the vote in the EU (which incidentally, given there are 28 countries, is disproportionately high).

    Now there are certainly arguments for people not voting for MEPs "seriously" and using it for protest votes, but that's fundamentally an issue with the British public, not with the EU.

    There are definite problems with the EU, however they rarely get discussed because it is easier for the Leave campaign/voters to wheel out nonsense like complaining about democracy when it's not on your side or just outright being xenophobic/racist.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    A stupid and pathetic anology. The EU is a free trade organisation, comparisons with domestic abuse are beyond absurd.
    so you're pretending to not know what a "mentality" is? :| i.e. the reasons why somebody supports alleged "free trade organisations" instead of actual ones. you want a free trade organisation? try the ****ing WTO - if not for the WTO, the EU would be even more protectionist than it currently is.

    you tried hard enough you can analogise anything with something awful, hence Boris comparing the EU to Hitler.
    okay, boris johnson shouldn't have compared the EU to hitler - he should have compared it to the soviet union instead - that would have been more accurate

    Analogies like this lower the standard of debate even further. Stop appealing to emotion and instead appeal to substantive issues. Problem is though that the far right and far left Only appeal to emotion and fear.
    but what I was saying was a flat-out fact. it's about ear to remain. that's what an abused wife feels. you can't tell me I'm appealing to fear to point out merely that a lot of the remain-arguments are BASED on fear itself!
 
 
 
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