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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    In the website below the £350 million figure is shown. So the figure is not a lie.. but to say that Britain would have £350 million available to spend is debatable. Just because we get money back from the EU in rebates.. (a pointless and illogical method) or in other ways.. we still get billed for £350 million! Money that we could spend on anything else..
    The figure being shown on a website doesn't mean it means what you say it means. The website you linked also says "Each year the UK gets an instant discount on its contributions to the EU—the ‘rebate’—worth almost £5 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £18 billion in contributions." We don't give £350m a week to the EU. To say we do is misleading at best, and lying at worst.

    In fact, it's about as misleading as if I were to claim that the EU gives us £9.5 billion a year. Because, well, we do. Imagine what will happen to our NHS when we lose that £9.5b we get from the EU!

    Let's just say they are trying extremely hard to join!
    They've been trying to join for 30 years. That doesn't mean that they're joining. Especially considering that a single country could stop them from doing so. It's a lie.

    The Dublin regulation determines which country is responsible for processing application of asylum seekers based on where they arrive in the EU. It has nothing to do with controlling our borders.

    the European Parliament elected Jean-Claude Juncker in a secret ballot on 15 July as President of the new European Commission to take office on 1 November 2014 for a five year term.
    What's the problem? The European Parliament elected their own president. Our Parliament doesn't elect our Prime Minister. It seems that if anything, our democratic system would be better if we took some ideas from the EU.
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    Not going to quote just going to add points below:

    Point 1) The figure of £350 million exists.. it's a fact... what they give us back is irrelevant because they are services that we pay for.. if it's at a reduced rate like a "special offer" (senseless) in the form of a rebate, at some point the actual price is £350 million - the RRP if you like! When will this special offer end! Who knows? The bigger question is WHAT DO OWE GET? What does Joe Blogs next door actually get?

    Point 2) They want to join and some members of the EU want them to join.. therefor their is a chance they could join at ANY time..
    The only barriers to Turkey joining the EU bloc appear to be its human rights record and Cyprus, which refuses to accept its sworn enemy as a fellow member until it recognises the island’s government. They didn't start negotiations until 2005 .. so 30 years is a stretch too far.. they will join within the next 5 years in my opinion!

    Point 3) EURODAC Regulation, which establishes a Europe-wide fingerprinting database for unauthorised entrants to the EU. i would say this is certainly a EU system that helps to control many borders including Britain

    .One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. Another aim is to reduce the number of "orbiting" asylum seekers, who are shuttled from member state to member state. The country that the asylum seeker first applies for asylum is responsible for either accepting or rejecting asylum, and the seeker may not restart the process in another jurisdiction.

    This is just one example of controlling the movement of people.. ie controlling borders

    Point 4) Did you or me have a vote into whether Jean-Claude Junckerbe given the authority to control our lives? We get a vote each year to hopefully elect the person or government we prefer.. it's a chance at least.. a "fair say" although this is not accurate! Given a vote.. Who is Jean-Claude Juncker?? Not many know or was even informed this person would be put into a position of authority over you and me?!! Therefor it is un democratic to millions of people!
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    Point 4) Did you or me have a vote into whether Jean-Claude Junckerbe given the authority to control our lives? We get a vote each year to hopefully elect the person or government we prefer.. it's a chance at least.. a "fair say" although this is not accurate! Given a vote.. Who is Jean-Claude Juncker?? Not many know or was even informed this person would be put into a position of authority over you and me?!! Therefor it is un democratic to millions of people!
    I voted for the SNP and have Cameron deciding my fate. Unsure what your point is? We elect people to make collective decisions on our behalf, this is no different from my local MP voting for whether Cameron is prime minister.

    If we were going to have a national vote on every decision ever made by the government (or the EU) then we would never get anything done. To say nothing of the fact that our voting turnout is absolutely terrible and there is generally mass ignorance when it comes to politics.
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    My point is extremely clear... are you ready.. we have a VOTE.. a choice therefor, to decide who controls things.. yes we might not win but we have a CHOICE...
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    I voted for the SNP and have Cameron deciding my fate. Unsure what your point is? We elect people to make collective decisions on our behalf, this is no different from my local MP voting for whether Cameron is prime minister.

    If we were going to have a national vote on every decision ever made by the government (or the EU) then we would never get anything done. To say nothing of the fact that our voting turnout is absolutely terrible and there is generally mass ignorance when it comes to politics.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Brainwashed?

    "£350 million to the EU..." - lie

    "Turkey is joining the EU..." - lie

    "EU controls our borders" - lie

    "EU is undemocratic" - lie

    And so on. I think the people that are brainwashed are the ones that are incessantly repeating a list of statements that are all categorically wrong, while not having a single rational, original thought. The people who formed their entire decision on what they read in the tabloids and what they heard on Facebook.
    £350 mill is the gross figure. Not a lie, you're just choosing to interpret it in a way that allows you to draw that conclusion.

    You don't know for certain if Turkey is joining the EU. While I agree that the Leave campaign has also been a little too pushy with this issue, for want of a better word, its still a valid concern that people have, especially given the recent level of talks between the EU and Turkey.

    The EU effectively does control our borders, with free movement of people to anyone with an EU passport. We are unable, as members, to deny entry to anyone with EU nationality unless they are a national security risk.

    Lastly, to claim the EU is democratic is ridiculous. When did you vote for any of the several presidents? When did you vote for the commission? Where do you go to stand as a candidate for the commission?
    Ordinary people have no powers to do any of these things, therefore the EU is not democratic.

    And I can honestly say that I never read tabloids, or any mainstream media, so sorry for not conforming to your neat little stereotype
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    My point is extremely clear... are you ready.. we have a VOTE.. a choice therefor, to decide who controls things.. yes we might not win but we have a CHOICE...
    Right, and we had a choice on who we voted for our MEP. They then voted for who they thought was in our best interests.

    To quote you "yes we might not win but we have a CHOICE". We made our choice and it didn't win.
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    They see being out of the EU as Europe going back to old and being divided, meaning another World War could happen.

    But I'm pretty sure those who fought in the war did not give their lives for a Marxist EU regime to take over them...

    Also look at what the EU is doing with Russia.

    French senate recently voter in favour of stopping the sanctions against Russia because these sanctions are really hurting France and other European countries.

    EU however wants sanctions that harms Europe! Why? they take orders from Washington. Puppet government.
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    My original point was that we do not have a choice who is elected to the main position "chairperson?" in the EU.. nor have many people ever heard of him.. we don't know if he's left, right, up or down!! Nothing about the person.. nor many others I might add! is it a committee run group and all get a vote... and if just one person says no.. it's a no?! How can many different countries all decide what is right for each individual country?!! it's insane to say the least!
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    Right, and we had a choice on who we voted for our MEP. They then voted for who they thought was in our best interests.

    To quote you "yes we might not win but we have a CHOICE". We made our choice and it didn't win.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    My original point was that we do not have a choice who is elected to the main position "chairperson?" in the EU.. nor have many people ever heard of him.. we don't know if he's left, right, up or down!! Nothing about the person.. nor many others I might add! is it a committee run group and all get a vote... and if just one person says no.. it's a no?! How can many different countries all decide what is right for each individual country?!! it's insane to say the least!
    So not getting your way is fine if you were outvoted by your countrymen but isn't if it's by people from outside of the country?

    That's what you really mean, it's not an issue of choice. How well known he is is irrelevant, that's a case of ignorance on our part and I would hope that our elected officials are more informed than I.

    As for the structure of the EU...it's been this way for decades? Unsure why it's suddenly an issue now.
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    The media, big business and politicans try to influence ALL OF US into doing what is in THEIR best interests.

    Young people are most susceptible because they simply are not as intelligent, experienced or as rational as older people.

    For example an 18 year old may be relatively smarter than a 60 year old, but said 60 year old has a lifetime of experience, has seen many politicans come and go.. has sat through the lies told to us in joining the EU, has sat through the fear mongering about how we will die if we dont join the Euro ... and he realises that these people are not there to serve him and the people but their own pockets and interests and will vote accordingly
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    No, we are not taught about the EU, it is not mentioned, and I went to school under Blair who was our most EU-loving leader ever. I am a politically engaged Europhile who studied European languages and it is only recently during this referendum, and I suppose during the Tories' strident announcements about withdrawing from the Convention on Human Rights etc, that I have learnt anything at all about the functioning of the EU.

    It is also since that time that I have begun to appreciate just how much the EU has done to protect us against successive, but especially Conservative, British governments; just how good a deal Britain gets from the EU with all the special snowflake opt-outs; and generally how desperately important it is for us to Remain.
    You just answered the thread. Very brainwashed, shame.
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    This isn't the 1600s. Britain can't get away with isolationism.
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    You still missed my point.. CHOICE and being given one.. the way in how the votes are counted and how many seats our Politicians gain needs reforming of course, and this is something else that needs to change.. to make it FAIR.

    The Structure of the EU i do not know exactly how it works but i know a LOT more since the EU referendum came up.. and you made a point for me.. We need to know more about it.. the fact we don't just shows how sneaky the whole process has been! You could argue and state we should find out about it ourselves, and you would be right.. but when SECRET voting is carried out it leaves a huge question mark in how much they are really making public!
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    So not getting your way is fine if you were outvoted by your countrymen but isn't if it's by people from outside of the country?

    That's what you really mean, it's not an issue of choice. How well known he is is irrelevant, that's a case of ignorance on our part and I would hope that our elected officials are more informed than I.

    As for the structure of the EU...it's been this way for decades? Unsure why it's suddenly an issue now.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    You still missed my point.. CHOICE and being given one.. the way in how the votes are counted and how many seats our Politicians gain needs reforming of course, and this is something else that needs to change.. to make it FAIR.

    The Structure of the EU i do not know exactly how it works but i know a LOT more since the EU referendum came up.. and you made a point for me.. We need to know more about it.. the fact we don't just shows how sneaky the whole process has been! You could argue and state we should find out about it ourselves, and you would be right.. but when SECRET voting is carried out it leaves a huge question mark in how much they are really making public!
    Please explain how we don't have a choice. I have clearly stated that the system of election in the EU is pretty much exactly the same as we have in our own country, which you apparently think is perfectly fine and gives us a choice. We vote for what goes on in the EU through our MEP, we vote what happens in parliament through our local MP. These two people represent us in every single decision made about our country (and beyond in the case of the EU). How is one different from another in terms or us being given a fair choice?

    Incidentally, your not knowing about the EU is your own personal ignorance. They are not hiding details of how it works, you have just not bothered to look - neither have I particularly, nor have many other people. This is why we have an informed and elected representative there on our behalf.

    Also secret voting does not necessarily mean anything dodgy is going on. Given the EU involves multiple countries who need to interact with eachother I would see it as perfectly reasonable to hold a closed vote where it is not announced which country voted where - to do so could put pressure or stigma on those who voted against the winner.

    Incidentally our elections (general and otherwise) we take part in could be considered "secret" as they are inherently anonymous.

    If someone points out to me some sort of evidence I will be first to pick up a torch and pitchfork, but thus far it seems people are just getting overly excited due to terminology and misunderstanding.
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    Did you vote for any of these people? If so how?
    President of the European Council (since 1 December 2014, Donald Tusk) President of the European Commission (since 1 November 2014, Jean-Claude Juncker) President of the European Parliament (since 1 July 2014, Martin Schulz) Presidency of the Council of the European Union (since 1 January 2016, The Netherlands)

    (Original post by Elivercury)
    Please explain how we don't have a choice. I have clearly stated that the system of election in the EU is pretty much exactly the same as we have in our own country, which you apparently think is perfectly fine and gives us a choice. We vote for what goes on in the EU through our MEP, we vote what happens in parliament through our local MP. These two people represent us in every single decision made about our country (and beyond in the case of the EU). How is one different from another in terms or us being given a fair choice?

    Incidentally, your not knowing about the EU is your own personal ignorance. They are not hiding details of how it works, you have just not bothered to look - neither have I particularly, nor have many other people. This is why we have an informed and elected representative there on our behalf.

    Also secret voting does not necessarily mean anything dodgy is going on. Given the EU involves multiple countries who need to interact with eachother I would see it as perfectly reasonable to hold a closed vote where it is not announced which country voted where - to do so could put pressure or stigma on those who voted against the winner.

    Incidentally our elections (general and otherwise) we take part in could be considered "secret" as they are inherently anonymous.

    If someone points out to me some sort of evidence I will be first to pick up a torch and pitchfork, but thus far it seems people are just getting overly excited due to terminology and misunderstanding.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    Did you vote for any of these people? If so how?
    President of the European Council (since 1 December 2014, Donald Tusk) President of the European Commission (since 1 November 2014, Jean-Claude Juncker) President of the European Parliament (since 1 July 2014, Martin Schulz) Presidency of the Council of the European Union (since 1 January 2016, The Netherlands)
    No idea, I don't know if my local MEP voted or who they voted for. I'm 90% certain my local MEP is a UKIP MEP, so they probably didn't participate because the UKIP MEPs are a bunch of useless tax wasters, but that is on us, not the EU.

    The fact stands though that I do have a local MEP, that I voted for and they presumably took part in the votes for each of those people. Therefore my vote was included.

    Are you actually reading anything I post? Because you're not taking it in.
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    Brainwashed in school? As opposed to being brainwashed by the Mail and the Sun into blaming foreigners for everything.
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    Just helps us in the longrun big man
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    (Original post by TaipeiGhost)
    Yes

    Youngsters lack the intelligence and life experience to come to decisions on their own. If Kim Kardashian came out in favour of Remain it would somehow influence a bunch of todays idiot youth to vote to stay.

    The voting age should be raised to 25. I think by that age you've learnt enough, know enough and experienced enough to make up your own decisions in life.
    I know some 18 year olds who have actively sought out information in order to be informed.

    I know some 25 year olds whose only form of education is the highly corrupt and bias Sun newspaper.
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    It's going in being processed and being rejected due to you not actually understanding my point.

    So you VOTED for your Local UKIP MEP even though you think they are useless.. makes sense! lol

    Please let me know when and how you voted for your MEP.. I must have missed that vote

    (Original post by Elivercury)
    No idea, I don't know if my local MEP voted or who they voted for. I'm 90% certain my local MEP is a UKIP MEP, so they probably didn't participate because the UKIP MEPs are a bunch of useless tax wasters, but that is on us, not the EU.

    The fact stands though that I do have a local MEP, that I voted for and they presumably took part in the votes for each of those people. Therefore my vote was included.

    Are you actually reading anything I post? Because you're not taking it in.
 
 
 
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