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    (Original post by typonaut)
    The general problems for the REMAIN campaign, that are not affecting the LEAVE campaign in the same way, are that the REMAIN camp come from across the political spectrum, where the LEAVErs are essentially disaffected Tories
    This isn't true, at all... besides the fact that in the Commons itself you have Labour for leave, Conservatives for leave, Liberal Democrats for leave etc etc, it's the same down on the ground. I know Conservatives voting leave, UKIPpers voting leave, labour voting leave, liberal democrats voting leave... it's massively non-partisan and it's because it's a similar situation to a war. We have to bind together to fight for the continuation of the political nation. We may all have different ideas and ambitions for it, but the crux of all our plans is that Britain exists and that we are in full democratic control of her destiny.

    Of course, there's some non-partisan element to the remain camp too - there's cowards in every party.
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    (Original post by urbanlocations)
    To put a very long story short.... Will you vote in or out??
    I don't think it's any secret that I am firmly in the REMAIN camp - but I'd like to see some reasonable argument on the matter. Repeating the same nonsense doesn't really persuade me that they've applied any more thought to it than flipping a coin.

    When I see old dears on the telly harking back to empire it literally makes me cry.
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    On the topic of the debate itself, solid win for Leave. Remain was shrill, arguments boiled down to literally just "muh tories" or "boris is silly".
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    A goodnight for Leave considering I thought Farage was poor a few nights back
    Really? I'm not even a Brexiter and I thought Farage upstaged Cameron
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    This isn't true, at all... besides the fact that in the Commons itself you have Labour for leave, Conservatives for leave, Liberal Democrats for leave etc etc…
    What I meant was that the faces leading the campaigns are largely disaffected Tories. I haven't any LibDem politicians advocating LEAVE, but sure there are a few from Labour - but they are by far in the minority.

    We may all have different ideas and ambitions for it, but the crux of all our plans is that Britain exists and that we are in full democratic control of her destiny.
    You are being sold a lie, and you are swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

    The democratic problems that exist in the EU exist directly in the UK too. There's more or less no accountability by individual MPS to their constituents - they vote for what they like when they like.

    The whole CONTROL issue is an outright lie. You have megalomaniacs like Michael Gove and Boris Johnson telling you to vote for control. They don't mean control for you, they mean more control for themselves. When Michael Gove was Secretary for State for Education it was him that put in place the obligations upon headteachers to not allow term time leave for state school pupils, unless there were exceptional circumstances.

    I asked if my son could have a day off to go on a trip to the Supreme Court and the Houses of Parliament. Nope, not exceptional circumstances. Wasn't he going to learn more that day than he would have in a month at school?

    The fact of the matter is that the Education Act gives headteachers discretion to allow up to two weeks off for every pupil per year - nothing about exceptional circumstances. But CONTROL freak Gove overrides the will of Parliament by directly regulating what headteachers can or cannot do.

    This is about politicians wanting more power for themselves, not about them wanting to give more power to you.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    Really? I'm not even a Brexiter and I thought Farage upstaged Cameron
    Cameron cannot win the argument, because he cannot turn round to Farage and say the truth: "It isn't the fault of the EU, or immigration, it's all the doing of my government and its austerity policies. That Osbourne bloke is an arse too!"
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    snip
    I made up my decision with regards to democracy quite a while ago. Watching the nation be forced to pay billions to the EU over debt or something and having to do it despite Cameron saying we wouldn't shook my belief in the ability of our government to carry out the will of the people. My faith was finally lost when Cameron went off on his "negotiations" and came back with just conversation and no change.

    You say that the UK is undemocratic as the EU (which it isn't.), but isn't it obvious that to fix the UK we must first unshackle ourselves from the EU?
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    To call such a ludicrous display a debate of any kind is just really rather offensive. This was less a debate than 6 ideologues shouting at each other for 2 hours. There was no attempt by any to listen to the others, to take into account what they had said and respond accordingly and especially so, absolutely no chance that any of them may even contemplate changing their mind may the evidence/arguments swing in that direction.

    This is the level of political discourse in this country, our 'leaders' shout at each other until no one wants to listen anymore, then they expect voters to make informed, sensible decisions when the whole set up seems to trade only in lies, mistruth, blackmail manipulation and false ideals.



    There is one simple truth about the referendum; the 'people' will gain nothing. It is, at it's core, a pathetic little argument between people with a vastly over-inflated sense of self-worth bickering about which group of unqualified fools should the fools to govern us. Vote how you like, it makes no difference.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    To call such a ludicrous display a debate of any kind is just really rather offensive. This was less a debate than 6 ideologues shouting at each other for 2 hours. There was no attempt by any to listen to the others, to take into account what they had said and respond accordingly and especially so, absolutely no chance that any of them may even contemplate changing their mind may the evidence/arguments swing in that direction.

    This is the level of political discourse in this country, our 'leaders' shout at each other until no one wants to listen anymore, then they expect voters to make informed, sensible decisions when the whole set up seems to trade only in lies, mistruth, blackmail manipulation and false ideals.



    There is one simple truth about the referendum; the 'people' will gain nothing. It is, at it's core, a pathetic little argument between people with a vastly over-inflated sense of self-worth bickering about which group of unqualified fools should the fools to govern us. Vote how you like, it makes no difference.
    Watch some of Hannan's debates, he actually takes what the other person says into consideration (The Hannan vs Izzard debate for example.)
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Watch some of Hannan's debates, he actually takes what the other person says into consideration (The Hannan vs Izzard debate for example.)
    I've seen him do so and I respect him for it, even if i may sometimes disagree with him. He should absolutely not be standing out for doing so though, it's pathetic.

    Either way I doubt there is any argument that can convince to bother turning up for this exercise in bourgeois posturing. We need to be aspiring to more than choosing between a rock and a hard place, the EU/UK are the problem, not the solution.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    No more hypocritical in my view than the arguments made by people who think the EU is undemocratic but not the UK.
    The EU is more undemocratic.

    Yes we have the House of Lords and Royal Assent, but the House of Lords is a revision chamber, that can delay legislation non-financed based for up to a year, and Royal Assent has a history of just being a formality.

    Where do your priorities lay?
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    I must say, the leaving campaign was very interesting. I'm still indecisive myself. My studies have always taught me that the UK is much stronger within the EU. However, the only aspect I am concerned about is immigration and terrorism. If we stay in the EU, I'm 100% sure terrorism is going to get worse, simply because background checks are not good enough (p.s. my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong).
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    (Original post by Lewis Calvert)
    I must say, the leaving campaign was very interesting. I'm still indecisive myself. My studies have always taught me that the UK is much stronger within the EU. However, the only aspect I am concerned about is immigration and terrorism. If we stay in the EU, I'm 100% sure terrorism is going to get worse, simply because background checks are not good enough (p.s. my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong).
    Who teaches you this? Your teacher? Biased, no?

    (In terms of us being a lot stronger in Europe.)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    Who teaches you this? Your teacher? Biased, no?

    (In terms of us being a lot stronger in Europe.)

    Yeah my teachers and most of my research throughout the past - probably because I'm focusing on business studies and the impact of tourism globally right now. In a way my studies do imply the UK is stronger within the union.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    No more hypocritical in my view than the arguments made by people who think the EU is undemocratic but not the UK.
    UK is more democratic than the EU fact!

    Also the argument lets stay in the most undemocratic organisation because ours isn't perfect is so ridiculous. Love to see you reply to this with some rubbish but I'm beginning to think you are a troll and are unable to stop being ignorant and foolish.
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    (Original post by urbanlocations)
    A lot of scaremongering from the remain also...

    Our EU membership cost 10.6 billion... it is fact we don't get any of that back.
    Except it is isn't a fact and we get a lot back.
    Scaremongerint on both sides yes but the leave side make out like they are the bastions of truth when they spew out unbelievable amounts of lies.
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    XcitingStuart
    sebby491


    The argument put forward by brexiters is that the EU is indemocratic because it prevents nation states from actingpirely in their own economic interest. This would apply to to the UK- for instance, Scotland during the 70s would have better served its national interest leaving the UK.

    (I support the UK staying together for the same reasons as I support the EU staying together).

    Even on a smaller level- unless you live in Whitby you did not elect our prime minister and you cannot get rid of him.

    The point is there is no objective polity: it depends on your own prejudices.

    I will say again. States are human constructs dependent on us and not vice versa.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    XcitingStuart
    sebby491


    The argument put forward by brexiters is that the EU is indemocratic because it prevents nation states from actingpirely in their own economic interest. This would apply to to the UK- for instance, Scotland during the 70s would have better served its national interest leaving the UK.

    (I support the UK staying together for the same reasons as I support the EU staying together).

    Even on a smaller level- unless you live in Whitby you did not elect our prime minister and you cannot get rid of him.

    The point is there is no objective polity: it depends on your own prejudices.

    I will say again. States are human constructs dependent on us and not vice versa.
    The "us" part is not united.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    The "us" part is not united.
    Come again?
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    (Original post by drogon;65r629443)
    ah the irony, apparently democracy is only legitimate if you're swayed by one agenda.
    Yeah. The brexit gang don't give a hoot about democracy. They're taking legal action against extending the deadline lol. Tells you everything you need to know.
 
 
 
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