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    (Original post by IRoranth)
    ALSO NOTE THAT FEMINISM IS THE ADVOCACY OF WOMENS RIGHTS ON THE GROUND OF THE EQUALITY OF THE SEXES- it is needed in modern society, because there are a lot of different inequalities for both women and men. It is a common misconception that feminism is merely based around individuals wanting the rights of women to be greater than men's, as well as it being a movement focused on "man-hating," which it certainly isn't- unless you look at radical tumblr feminists lol.
    Read the other thread, do some research reading what male right activists state and then tell me that again.

    Also, I'm sorry but if you don't believe that the justice system favours women then you haven't been paying attention really. Having male judges makes no difference.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Read the other thread, do some research reading what male right activists state and then tell me that again.

    Also, I'm sorry but if you don't believe that the justice system favours women then you haven't been paying attention really. Having male judges makes no difference.
    The justice system favours women? What about all those rape cases that are disregarded and said to be "lies."
    Also, yes I do agree the justice system is also unfair to men, e.g in the situation of a divorce.
    BUT, that's what I'm trying to get across. OP mentioned "modern feminism is a joke," and only stated situations where women have the advantage- what i'm trying to say, is the whole point of feminism is for EQUAL rights.

    Also, please do link me to the other thread and any research you have found on male rights activists, would like to look into them.

    nb; do note that having a majority of male judges does make a difference- shows how patriarchal our society is, as well as the lack of representation women have in society- for god's sake we are half the human race and we have more men speaking on our behalf than women.
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    (Original post by IRoranth)
    as well as the lack of representation women have in society
    bruh, this happened tonight :lol:

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    (Original post by Don Joiner)
    There is no way that any reputable firm would be allowed to pay one person less than another for doing the same job and who has the same experience
    Happens all the time. Literally happening to my sister right now, although I don't know whether that's because she's female. I'd like to think not.

    Before you ask, no children. Not that choosing to have children should devalue you as an employee in any way
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    (Original post by IRoranth)
    The justice system favours women? What about all those rape cases that are disregarded and said to be "lies."
    Also, yes I do agree the justice system is also unfair to men, e.g in the situation of a divorce.
    BUT, that's what I'm trying to get across. OP mentioned "modern feminism is a joke," and only stated situations where women have the advantage- what i'm trying to say, is the whole point of feminism is for EQUAL rights.

    Also, please do link me to the other thread and any research you have found on male rights activists, would like to look into them.
    The trouble with rape is it is such a difficult thing to prove. It's a he said/she said situation and men don't always come out of it so well...e.g a woman can falsely accuse a man of rape anytime she wants and his name is all over the papers while her identity is protected. He will have lived possibly a year or two as a 'suspected rapist'...reputation damaged, harm to employment etc? Then there is the grey area with whether women are intoxicated enough to consent... e.g. she can partake in sex but still apparently be 'too drunk' - it leaves scenarios where a woman may have willingly had sex but drunk so much that she later forgets or regrets it and claims rape and the man can be in big trouble despite the fact that he may himself have also been very drunk. Rape is just messy. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of it from a woman's point of view because it's an awful crime, but it sure is treated pretty seriously.

    Child custody is an example of ridiculous bias. We all know about that and I've discussed recently how I have seen grown men completely broken by that process.

    I also see so many news stories these days about women committing sex crimes and getting off much more lightly than men in a similar situation would. For example, these female teachers who end up having sex with their pupils. Have you seen how lightly they get off? A male teacher has sex with a female pupil....he is doing some serious time.

    The other thread is: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=4113663

    It is long, but in the end the women who were responding just stopped replying. The main argument revolved around how much more serious female issues are taken compared to issues affecting men and how male right activists are basically laughed at by society. There is a very false narrative in society about how tough women have it compared to men and it is something which actually seems to be getting worse all the time.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    bruh, this happened tonight


    bruh, this happens everyday.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    Why can't SJWs get their point across without throwing tantrums and swearing like a kid with tourettes :lol:
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    also why is he wearing underwear on his face? :ninja:
    It's in their DNA :lol:

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    its called a niqab dont be homophobic
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    (Original post by z33)
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    its called a niqab dont be homophobic
    Omfg so ded :rofl: :rofl:
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    (Original post by Don Joiner)
    There are so many things wrong with it. I'm completely for men-women equality but surely anyone with half a brain can see that third wave feminism is no longer about equality

    -The pay gap is a myth
    -We always hear about how there aren't enough women in science/business but never that there aren't enough women in mining/construction (or any lower class job)
    -Women have the same rights as men
    -Girls do better in school
    -More girls are going to university than boys at present
    -The justice system hugely favours women

    As a side note, I also believe that dress codes in office/professional environments heavily advantage women and give them so much more freedom than men.




    Posted from TSR Mobile

    Are you *really* for men-women equality though?

    For someone who is, they are totally right to look at the ways in which men are sometimes unfavourably treated in society (parental custody going immediately to the mother being the main way in which men are significantly victimised).

    But the thrust of your (and peoples' who are generally anti-feminist) arguments is that the injustices against men are equal to those against women which SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE.

    To outline all the ways in which this has occurred, I would need to write an encyclopedia (and certainly could not condense it into a TSR post).

    If you look at society from a global and historical perspective, women have undeniably been treated as and regarded as inferior throughout history and in every single country in the world.

    Throughout our evolutionary history, women contributed less to the survival of the tribe (reproduction and childcare being the only significant contribution) as opposed to men who represented protection (ESSENTIAL) and resource bearing (also essential).

    As we are animals our brains still largely operate with the same impulses bread into us throughout evolution and hence we all, of both genders, still regard men as superior just for being men, even though in modern society, it is arguable that women work harder and take on many more rolls which contribute to societal, family and the workplace than do men.

    To deny that the world has and still does largely favour males on the whole (with some notable exceptions), you'd either have to be incredibly ignorant/uneducated, or you just don't WANT to accept it as you subconsciously aren't really for equality.

    Being "MRA" is the same as being "White Lives Matter".

    To say that injusticed perpertrated against whites are equal to those against blacks, in a global and historical context, SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE and almost all of the people who advocate for this are subconsciously racist.

    To address your petty issues:

    -"The pay gap is a myth"
    I love how you just simply state this as fact with no reasoning or evidence. It's like me saying "Grass is pink".
    Anyhows, women do get paid less than men for the same work across a wide variety of industries (not accounting for time off etc - exactly the same). However, I personally think this is largely due to women not asking for more and hence employers think they can get away with it.

    Feminism isn't about blaming men or the "patriarchy" as the media would have us believe. Many issues facing women are the responsibility of women themselves to address - which they don't.

    An excellent book on the subject is "Ask For It" - which encourages women to be more assertive and go for the pay they deserve - as men do.

    -We always hear about how there aren't enough women in science/business but never that there aren't enough women in mining/construction (or any lower class job)

    That's like saying "we always hear that there aren't enough black people in executive positions, but never that there aren't enough black cleaners (or any lower class job)".

    Yes, you don't empower an unempowered group by putting them in horrible jobs. How dare these women have the audacity to strive to be in science and business whilst not simultaneously striving to be in horrible jobs?

    Yes, women are underrepresented in construction. Men are underrepresented in cleaning.

    I think it is positive now that more men are being accepted as nurses. I don't feel the need to encourage men (or anyone) into cleaning as it's not a particularly enjoyable job (like construction).

    -"Women have the same rights as men"

    Again, another blanket statement.

    Legally, in this country, women enjoy most of the same rights as men. Legally, they should be the same under the law.

    Socially, our social evolutionary brains haven't caught up and they still aren't regarded as equals socially. This needs addressing.

    But that is only the West.

    In most of the world, women do not enjoy the same legal rights as men.

    Throughout most of history in this country, women have not enjoyed the same rights as men. Hence, women's legal rights, even in this country, are very recent and hence very fragile.

    This whole "we can just rest on our laurels, women are the same as men" is just ridiculous.

    - "Girls do better in school"

    Academia is better suited to the nature of women (passive).

    And yet, despite of this, women were not allowed to study throughout most of history.

    It's excellent now that they can and are surpassing boys, inspite of being forbidden throughout most of history in the same way that Jews have massively succeeded in education in the States despite being banned from most of the Ivy League colleges until relatively recently.

    My first reaction to this (even as non-Jew) should be congratulating Jews on their success despite barriers - this should be the same for women.

    -"More girls are going to university than boys at present"

    Same as above.

    And this has been through hard work and merit. There is no evidence to suggest university admissions teams favour girls

    -"The justice system hugely favours women"

    This is the only point you've made which has some merit.

    MRA argue that women's sentences are less harsh than men's. This could be true (I don't know enough about criminal justice stats), but overall the trend will always be more men receiving longer sentences as, due to testosterone, men commit more violent crime and crime in general.

    The real (and one of the only) ways modern men are discriminated against are in the custody courts.

    I totally support Fathers for Justice - and think that custody should go to the more able parent - regardless of gender, which it doesn't - it currently favours the woman.

    But even with this, it was only relatively recently with the Custody of Infants Act (1839) that women were allowed ANY custody or contact with their children after a divorce.

    Prior to that, custody automatically went to the father in each and every circumstance, with no way for the woman to appeal or see her children at all.

    In all of the developing world, it is still the same.

    So this is not some "historical way women are favoured". Quite the opposite.


    So yeah, basically, do your research and educate yourself before making such blanket statements.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    bruh, this happened tonight :lol:

    The fact that this is so rare and when it does happen, stands out quite a lot proves the original poster's point.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    Why can't SJWs get their point across without throwing tantrums and swearing like a kid with tourettes :lol:
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    also why is he wearing underwear on his face? :ninja:
    i died. i am literally dead. this is my ghost posting

    :toofunny:
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    (Original post by J_89)
    Are you *really* for men-women equality though?

    For someone who is, they are totally right to look at the ways in which men are sometimes unfavourably treated in society (parental custody going immediately to the mother being the main way in which men are significantly victimised).

    But the thrust of your (and peoples' who are generally anti-feminist) arguments is that the injustices against men are equal to those against women which SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE.

    To outline all the ways in which this has occurred, I would need to write an encyclopedia (and certainly could not condense it into a TSR post).

    If you look at society from a global and historical perspective, women have undeniably been treated as and regarded as inferior throughout history and in every single country in the world.

    Throughout our evolutionary history, women contributed less to the survival of the tribe (reproduction and childcare being the only significant contribution) as opposed to men who represented protection (ESSENTIAL) and resource bearing (also essential).

    As we are animals our brains still largely operate with the same impulses bread into us throughout evolution and hence we all, of both genders, still regard men as superior just for being men, even though in modern society, it is arguable that women work harder and take on many more rolls which contribute to societal, family and the workplace than do men.

    To deny that the world has and still does largely favour males on the whole (with some notable exceptions), you'd either have to be incredibly ignorant/uneducated, or you just don't WANT to accept it as you subconsciously aren't really for equality.

    Being "MRA" is the same as being "White Lives Matter".

    To say that injusticed perpertrated against whites are equal to those against blacks, in a global and historical context, SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE and almost all of the people who advocate for this are subconsciously racist.

    To address your petty issues:

    -"The pay gap is a myth"
    I love how you just simply state this as fact with no reasoning or evidence. It's like me saying "Grass is pink".
    Anyhows, women do get paid less than men for the same work across a wide variety of industries (not accounting for time off etc - exactly the same). However, I personally think this is largely due to women not asking for more and hence employers think they can get away with it.

    Feminism isn't about blaming men or the "patriarchy" as the media would have us believe. Many issues facing women are the responsibility of women themselves to address - which they don't.

    An excellent book on the subject is "Ask For It" - which encourages women to be more assertive and go for the pay they deserve - as men do.

    -We always hear about how there aren't enough women in science/business but never that there aren't enough women in mining/construction (or any lower class job)

    That's like saying "we always hear that there aren't enough black people in executive positions, but never that there aren't enough black cleaners (or any lower class job)".

    Yes, you don't empower an unempowered group by putting them in horrible jobs. How dare these women have the audacity to strive to be in science and business whilst not simultaneously striving to be in horrible jobs?

    Yes, women are underrepresented in construction. Men are underrepresented in cleaning.

    I think it is positive now that more men are being accepted as nurses. I don't feel the need to encourage men (or anyone) into cleaning as it's not a particularly enjoyable job (like construction).

    -"Women have the same rights as men"

    Again, another blanket statement.

    Legally, in this country, women enjoy most of the same rights as men. Legally, they should be the same under the law.

    Socially, our social evolutionary brains haven't caught up and they still aren't regarded as equals socially. This needs addressing.

    But that is only the West.

    In most of the world, women do not enjoy the same legal rights as men.

    Throughout most of history in this country, women have not enjoyed the same rights as men. Hence, women's legal rights, even in this country, are very recent and hence very fragile.

    This whole "we can just rest on our laurels, women are the same as men" is just ridiculous.

    - "Girls do better in school"

    Academia is better suited to the nature of women (passive).

    And yet, despite of this, women were not allowed to study throughout most of history.

    It's excellent now that they can and are surpassing boys, inspite of being forbidden throughout most of history in the same way that Jews have massively succeeded in education in the States despite being banned from most of the Ivy League colleges until relatively recently.

    My first reaction to this (even as non-Jew) should be congratulating Jews on their success despite barriers - this should be the same for women.

    -"More girls are going to university than boys at present"

    Same as above.

    And this has been through hard work and merit. There is no evidence to suggest university admissions teams favour girls

    -"The justice system hugely favours women"

    This is the only point you've made which has some merit.

    MRA argue that women's sentences are less harsh than men's. This could be true (I don't know enough about criminal justice stats), but overall the trend will always be more men receiving longer sentences as, due to testosterone, men commit more violent crime and crime in general.

    The real (and one of the only) ways modern men are discriminated against are in the custody courts.

    I totally support Fathers for Justice - and think that custody should go to the more able parent - regardless of gender, which it doesn't - it currently favours the woman.

    But even with this, it was only relatively recently with the Custody of Infants Act (1839) that women were allowed ANY custody or contact with their children after a divorce.

    Prior to that, custody automatically went to the father in each and every circumstance, with no way for the woman to appeal or see her children at all.

    In all of the developing world, it is still the same.

    So this is not some "historical way women are favoured". Quite the opposite.


    So yeah, basically, do your research and educate yourself before making such blanket statements.
    Well that was a frustrating read.
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    (Original post by mikeymk)
    Yeah, why do you ask?
    Would have thought that that explains why your sister isn't paid quite as much as her husband. By having a child you spend 18-24 months not doing work, losing experience that male counterparts would have and potentially falling out of practise with the job. All of this adds up, and does change what a person can do once they get back to the job, which can affect their pay packet.
    Source: my parents run a business, and I talk to them.
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    the whole pay myth is stupid. If they were paid less then it would be logical for an organization to hire females only as more profit would be made due to decrease in wages
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Well that was a frustrating read.
    Very easy to reply with no counter arguments.

    Debate doesn't care who is frustrated or not - it cares about logic and facts.

    You don't have anything good to counter that, so nobody really cares how it makes you feel.

    I thought it was us women who are supposed to argue with our feelings expecting it to make a difference?
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    (Original post by J_89)
    Very easy to reply with no counter arguments.

    Debate doesn't care who is frustrated or not - it cares about logic and facts.

    You don't have anything good to counter that, so nobody really cares how it makes you feel.

    I thought it was us women who are supposed to argue with our feelings expecting it to make a difference?
    Well you talk about blanket statements yet state:

    "Being MRA is the same as being 'white lives matter' " and go on to talk about how women still have it tougher in the developed world. In the last few weeks I've made many posts stating why I believe the opposite is true. If you want an example the read the thread which I linked above... nobody could really answer my posts
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Well you talk about blanket statements yet state:

    "Being MRA is the same as being 'white lives matter' " and go on to talk about how women still have it tougher in the developed world. In the last few weeks I've made many posts stating why I believe the opposite is true. If you want an example the read the thread which I linked above... nobody could really answer my posts
    It wasn't really a blanket statement as I gave a lot of reasons and explanations why they don't, but I'll further expand below.

    I can't find the link that you've posted, please post again.

    From a quick scan through your previous arguments, nobody is denying that there are some ways that men are discriminated against for being males, but there is also no denying that these circumstances are FAR rarer (with the exception of the parental custody issue which I agree is an imminent and critical issue) than the ways in which women face discrimination on a daily basis - not only from men but from other women.

    People generally, prefer and regard men as superior (for evolutionary biological reasons which I outlined in the last post) and this manifests in a multitude of ways, which, are felt in society and culture on a DAILY basis in most interactions, the subtle nuances of which are harder to understand if you aren't female.

    Black people also say that white people cannot possibly understand the pervasiveness of racism unless they have been a minority, and whilst I myself am white - I could totally conceive of this to be true.

    I don't have any problems at all with men who want to address specific issues that face their gender (especially Fathers for Justice which I myself have supported and donate to) but their vehement insistence that their issues outnumber those which women have faced and are facing is absolutely ridiculous and deep, down, yes, it's almost certain that they are cloaking up their own sexism or otherwise they would have no reason to insist that women pushing for equality is wrong or somehow unnecessary/not needed.

    To rub salt into the wound, they then project their sexism onto feminists inferring that feminists somehow hate men - when it is they who hate women.

    I asked my MRA friend to name one feminist, alive or dead, who has openly come out stating they hate men and he named "Wollstonecroft". I researched Mary Woolstonecroft (she was, incidentally, the only philosopher that my politics professor missed out when he was teaching about the 20 world changing philosophers in our text book on political philosophy because she was a feminist and he was teaching, in his own word, "HIStory" (pun intended)), and actually found that Woolstonecroft was alive in the 1700s and was the first woman who advocated the expansion of rights for women - but, being a product of her time, she acknowledged the superiority of men, so is actually rejected by modern day feminists who won't accept the superiority of either gender (i.e. she was not feminist ENOUGH so my friend clearly was wrong about her and just picked a random name as he had no answers).

    Real life feminists (I know them, in the online community and real life) are pro-equality and all of them support expanding paternal custody rights and see the ways in which men are discriminated against (again, as I said above - far fewer in number, but nonetheless also in need of addressing) as part of the same problem.

    MRA is purely misogyny masquerading as having an intellectual basis, as 90% of the ones I've known (mostly I've seen them online but a couple in real life too) clearly hate women and have support for NO women's rights issues as they kind of see women as the enemy i.e. "MGTOW" - even the title embodies this.

    I'm pretty sure you're one of these too so I'm not going to waste any more time writing back to you.
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    (Original post by J_89)
    It wasn't really a blanket statement as I gave a lot of reasons and explanations why they don't, but I'll further expand below.

    I can't find the link that you've posted, please post again.

    From a quick scan through your previous arguments, nobody is denying that there are some ways that men are discriminated against for being males, but there is also no denying that these circumstances are FAR rarer (with the exception of the parental custody issue which I agree is an imminent and critical issue) than the ways in which women face discrimination on a daily basis - not only from men but from other women.

    People generally, prefer and regard men as superior (for evolutionary biological reasons which I outlined in the last post) and this manifests in a multitude of ways, which, are felt in society and culture on a DAILY basis in most interactions, the subtle nuances of which are harder to understand if you aren't female.

    Black people also say that white people cannot possibly understand the pervasiveness of racism unless they have been a minority, and whilst I myself am white - I could totally conceive of this to be true.

    I don't have any problems at all with men who want to address specific issues that face their gender (especially Fathers for Justice which I myself have supported and donate to) but their vehement insistence that their issues outnumber those which women have faced and are facing is absolutely ridiculous and deep, down, yes, it's almost certain that they are cloaking up their own sexism or otherwise they would have no reason to insist that women pushing for equality is wrong or somehow unnecessary/not needed.

    To rub salt into the wound, they then project their sexism onto feminists inferring that feminists somehow hate men - when it is they who hate women.

    I asked my MRA friend to name one feminist, alive or dead, who has openly come out stating they hate men and he named "Wollstonecroft". I researched Mary Woolstonecroft (she was, incidentally, the only philosopher that my politics professor missed out when he was teaching about the 20 world changing philosophers in our text book on political philosophy because she was a feminist and he was teaching, in his own word, "HIStory" (pun intended)), and actually found that Woolstonecroft was alive in the 1700s and was the first woman who advocated the expansion of rights for women - but, being a product of her time, she acknowledged the superiority of men, so is actually rejected by modern day feminists who won't accept the superiority of either gender (i.e. she was not feminist ENOUGH so my friend clearly was wrong about her and just picked a random name as he had no answers).

    Real life feminists (I know them, in the online community and real life) are pro-equality and all of them support expanding paternal custody rights and see the ways in which men are discriminated against (again, as I said above - far fewer in number, but nonetheless also in need of addressing) as part of the same problem.

    MRA is purely misogyny masquerading as having an intellectual basis, as 90% of the ones I've known (mostly I've seen them online but a couple in real life too) clearly hate women and have support for NO women's rights issues as they kind of see women as the enemy i.e. "MGTOW" - even the title embodies this.

    I'm pretty sure you're one of these too so I'm not going to waste any more time writing back to you.
    What a truly bizarre post.

    So basically, to summarise...

    Feminists are just pro equality and not misandrist at all. However mens right activists are misogynists.

    Women face much more sexism on a daily basis and men would have to be female to understand this. (The irony of you belittling sexism towards men while not being male yourself by the way.)

    Finally, you make an assumption about me despite hardly knowing a thing about me, stating that you're 'not going to waste any more time writing back' (you've written two posts), yet have asked for me to post the link that I was referring to.

    Basically you have written a post which would be the same as me saying 'women have barely any issues and feminists are all man haters and i'm not going to discuss it because you're one of them too'. Not a good way to project feminism and pretty ironic given what we're discussing. Finally....while men face a raw deal with custody issues, we also face many more issues, which is exactly why it is so important to have mens rights activists. It is simply wrong (ignorant at best, sexist at worst) to try to belittle issues which men face and the frequency with which we face them. I'm personally glad that MRA is a growing movement because we desperately need people to point out that this feminist narrative which we are fed by the media isn't always so true.
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    (Original post by J_89)
    Are you *really* for men-women equality though?

    For someone who is, they are totally right to look at the ways in which men are sometimes unfavourably treated in society (parental custody going immediately to the mother being the main way in which men are significantly victimised).

    But the thrust of your (and peoples' who are generally anti-feminist) arguments is that the injustices against men are equal to those against women which SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE.

    To outline all the ways in which this has occurred, I would need to write an encyclopedia (and certainly could not condense it into a TSR post).

    If you look at society from a global and historical perspective, women have undeniably been treated as and regarded as inferior throughout history and in every single country in the world.

    Throughout our evolutionary history, women contributed less to the survival of the tribe (reproduction and childcare being the only significant contribution) as opposed to men who represented protection (ESSENTIAL) and resource bearing (also essential).

    As we are animals our brains still largely operate with the same impulses bread into us throughout evolution and hence we all, of both genders, still regard men as superior just for being men, even though in modern society, it is arguable that women work harder and take on many more rolls which contribute to societal, family and the workplace than do men.

    To deny that the world has and still does largely favour males on the whole (with some notable exceptions), you'd either have to be incredibly ignorant/uneducated, or you just don't WANT to accept it as you subconsciously aren't really for equality.

    Being "MRA" is the same as being "White Lives Matter".

    To say that injusticed perpertrated against whites are equal to those against blacks, in a global and historical context, SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE and almost all of the people who advocate for this are subconsciously racist.

    To address your petty issues:

    -"The pay gap is a myth"
    I love how you just simply state this as fact with no reasoning or evidence. It's like me saying "Grass is pink".
    Anyhows, women do get paid less than men for the same work across a wide variety of industries (not accounting for time off etc - exactly the same). However, I personally think this is largely due to women not asking for more and hence employers think they can get away with it.

    Feminism isn't about blaming men or the "patriarchy" as the media would have us believe. Many issues facing women are the responsibility of women themselves to address - which they don't.

    An excellent book on the subject is "Ask For It" - which encourages women to be more assertive and go for the pay they deserve - as men do.

    -We always hear about how there aren't enough women in science/business but never that there aren't enough women in mining/construction (or any lower class job)

    That's like saying "we always hear that there aren't enough black people in executive positions, but never that there aren't enough black cleaners (or any lower class job)".

    Yes, you don't empower an unempowered group by putting them in horrible jobs. How dare these women have the audacity to strive to be in science and business whilst not simultaneously striving to be in horrible jobs?

    Yes, women are underrepresented in construction. Men are underrepresented in cleaning.

    I think it is positive now that more men are being accepted as nurses. I don't feel the need to encourage men (or anyone) into cleaning as it's not a particularly enjoyable job (like construction).

    -"Women have the same rights as men"

    Again, another blanket statement.

    Legally, in this country, women enjoy most of the same rights as men. Legally, they should be the same under the law.

    Socially, our social evolutionary brains haven't caught up and they still aren't regarded as equals socially. This needs addressing.

    But that is only the West.

    In most of the world, women do not enjoy the same legal rights as men.

    Throughout most of history in this country, women have not enjoyed the same rights as men. Hence, women's legal rights, even in this country, are very recent and hence very fragile.

    This whole "we can just rest on our laurels, women are the same as men" is just ridiculous.

    - "Girls do better in school"

    Academia is better suited to the nature of women (passive).

    And yet, despite of this, women were not allowed to study throughout most of history.

    It's excellent now that they can and are surpassing boys, inspite of being forbidden throughout most of history in the same way that Jews have massively succeeded in education in the States despite being banned from most of the Ivy League colleges until relatively recently.

    My first reaction to this (even as non-Jew) should be congratulating Jews on their success despite barriers - this should be the same for women.

    -"More girls are going to university than boys at present"

    Same as above.

    And this has been through hard work and merit. There is no evidence to suggest university admissions teams favour girls

    -"The justice system hugely favours women"

    This is the only point you've made which has some merit.

    MRA argue that women's sentences are less harsh than men's. This could be true (I don't know enough about criminal justice stats), but overall the trend will always be more men receiving longer sentences as, due to testosterone, men commit more violent crime and crime in general.

    The real (and one of the only) ways modern men are discriminated against are in the custody courts.

    I totally support Fathers for Justice - and think that custody should go to the more able parent - regardless of gender, which it doesn't - it currently favours the woman.

    But even with this, it was only relatively recently with the Custody of Infants Act (1839) that women were allowed ANY custody or contact with their children after a divorce.

    Prior to that, custody automatically went to the father in each and every circumstance, with no way for the woman to appeal or see her children at all.

    In all of the developing world, it is still the same.

    So this is not some "historical way women are favoured". Quite the opposite.


    So yeah, basically, do your research and educate yourself before making such blanket statements.
    You use all these big words and long sentences to look like you're giving a good argument, but at the end of the day you're still just using feelings and theories as arguments rather than proven facts. Sure, it sounds perfectly logical, but that doesn't make it true. It is a proven fact that the gender pay gap isn't true and I suggest YOU go and educate yourself before speaking on it.

    Any economist will tell you straight away that this 77 cents to a dollar or whatever figures you want to use only come up when you take the average pay of every woman in work, and compare it to the average pay of every man in work. When you account for variables ie the person's job, total holidays taken, time spent working at the company, total hours spent working per week, qualifications etc, the 'gender pay gap' narrows to literally 1-2% either way. I hate using this argument, but I think it still emphasises the point: if companies really pay their women less money than the men, then due to the very nature of capitalism, companies would simply hire only women and would that way save on all those extra labour costs, wouldn't they?

    Using all those references to history is also irrelevant. Of course feminism has done wonderful things in the world throughout history, but nowadays, after equality has been achieved in the West, third wave feminism is just completely unnecessary. All I see is women, and some low-testosterone beta males, whining and whining about exceedingly frivolous issues, despite the fact that they've now even overstepped equality in the last decade or so. The reason so many people nowadays hate feminism, is not because we hate women, it's because feminists complain all day long about being the victim, and calling everybody else privileged, while not noticing the irony that Western women themselves are now the most priveledged group in the history of our species. They'll rush to call every little thing 'racist' and 'misogynist', in an attempt to silence those who disagree with them, and to label issues that aren't even to do with gender or race at all. Even as a black person, I can't stand how they constantly bring race into everything and demonise white people simply for being white.

    And the worst part is that they lie. First they start with made up facts, such as that 1 in 5 women's in the USA will get raped in their lifetime and that there is a rape culture on college campuses. Then even when these figures are objectively disproven, (for example when it is revealed that this 1 in 5 figure was derived from one single survey, in one single adult education centre,had a 26% response rate, stretched the definition of rape to as far as 'unwanted kissing' or 'intoxicated sexual activity' and even had the conductor of the investigation say the results weren't reliable and shouldn't be applied to the country) they'll always keep back peddling their argument until it comes down to opinions and feelings, and since this is where everything becomes completely subjective, the argument can no longer be winnable for either side. Plus, the 'patriarchy' is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that feminists just use at any time without any proof to explain anything.

    On top of this, feminists simply don't realise the fact that the genders are different, yes I know it might seem crazy, but women are different to men. Therefore, why should there be a gender parity in everything? Can't you just accept that there aren't as many female doctors as male doctors because women simply choose not to be doctors, not because the evil patriarchy is forcing them to take a degree in gender studies instead? Feminist thinking is what has led to institutions openly discriminating against men, for example females in STEM fields are twice as likely to be chosen for a job over their male counterparts with the exact same or even better qualifications, simply because they want to fulfil some sort of quota. That's what you call real discrimination. If anything feminists are the sexist ones, for basically implying that women are so inferior to men that they have to be given handouts and special treatment to do the same things a man can. And then even though they claim to 'empower' women, feminists then go on to demonise women for taking traditionally feminine roles such as being a stay-at-home mother as if to denounce femininity and to imply that women are only strong if they take on masculine roles. No wonder Ronda Rousey is so popular and is the highest-paid UFC fighter, despite the fact that even she even acknowledges that any professional male UFC fighter, even in her own weight class, would destroy her in a fight. She is by no means the most talented fighter in the UFC, but of course because she's emulating a masculine role, society goes crazy for her. Feminists seem to forget that men and women have inherent biological differences, and that these differences will and should naturally affect how we're treated to some degree. Feminists always love to take advantage of the differences that provide a benefit for them, such as chivalry and the rule that men should never hit women (both of which I completely agree with by the way), but then scream 'sexist', when more people go to watch men's football than women's football. More men prefer men's football because men are generally faster and stronger than women, and people want to see the fastest and strongest athletes competing with eachother, and not settle for less simply to cater to women. Biology is not sexist. Society is not sexist. You are just blind.

    But with all that said, I have to say I admire your passion, and i understand that in general most feminists arguments are coming from a good place, the only problem is these arguments are wrong. I know feminists do genuinely believe they are fighting for a good cause, but everybody has just jumped on the victimhood bandwagon, without looking at both sides of the argument objectively and without bias. I can't say I blame feminists for this, it seems to be inherent in our human nature to believe we are the victim and to blame our own shortcomings on everything else before ourselves. As you can see with this awfully racist movement 'Black Lives Matter', black people do it to (like I said before I'm black too, so don't try the racism card), I get that it isn't exclusive to women. I definitely see that feminism is need around the world, especially in Muslim and African countries, but here in the West you're just flogging a dead horse, and any good feminists here have been massively let down by the stupid movement it's proven itself to be.

    PS. the fact that breast cancer research, problems unique to women, receives dozens of times the amount of donations as testicular and prostate cancer research, problems unique to men, despite the latter affecting and killing many more men than breast cancer does women, shows just how much society values the two genders in comparison with one another. I'm not saying this is wrong, society should be able to decide itself how much it cares for each issue and as a man I 100% agree that it's a man's duty to cater for women in particular, but still it's ludicrous for feminists to then claim society hates women and loves men. I know it's anecdotal (like every feminist argument lol) but I've been taught since I was a child, and I'm sure many men have as well, that it's my job to care for women, and I think this feeling runs deep in the male community. But now you guys are just getting spoilt.
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    (Original post by J_89)

    - "Girls do better in school"

    Academia is better suited to the nature of women (passive).

    And yet, despite of this, women were not allowed to study throughout most of history.

    It's excellent now that they can and are surpassing boys, inspite of being forbidden throughout most of history in the same way that Jews have massively succeeded in education in the States despite being banned from most of the Ivy League colleges until relatively recently.

    My first reaction to this (even as non-Jew) should be congratulating Jews on their success despite barriers - this should be the same for women.

    -"More girls are going to university than boys at present"

    Same as above.

    And this has been through hard work and merit. There is no evidence to suggest university admissions teams favour girls
    You think women doing better than men in education is a good thing? They do better simply because the current education system in this country favours a method of learning and examination that is considered to favour women. This IMO needs to be changed.

    History should have nothing to do with this. Just because a boys ancestor got accepted to a university that didn't accept woman that doesn't justify an education that is likely to put him down compared to his potential.
 
 
 
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