Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Alexion)
    I reiterate

    Out of the people I've spoken to and the posters I've seen, at least.
    May want to reassess your grammar.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sebastian Bartlett)
    May want to reassess your grammar.
    ... because that's relevant
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    The Remain campaign has been abysmal and has been based on treating the public like idiots. Not that the Leave campaign has been much better, mind.
    I think you could say the same for the Leave campaign. If there is one thing that is certain about this, it is that politicians will say anything if they think it will earn them a vote or two. I have been very disappointed with the previously pro EU, pro let's allow Turkey in, Boris Johnson. People had said he was a bit of a nutter but I overlooked that on account of the fact that he comes across as likeable and is a keen cyclist. Sadly though, he has proved himself a totally self obsessed chump in this campaign.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Alexion)
    ... because that's relevant
    Of course it is. If you put forward a point which can be misinterpreted due to poor grammar then its your fault they misinterpreted it. Ambiguity benefits the party that did not draft the statement!
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by doodle_333)
    In my area there seems to be a lot more support for leave, I haven't spoken to many people about it but certainly the majority of posters in windows are Vote Leave and the majority of campaigners I see around are from Vote Leave as well.
    Same here in my area. I attended an EU debate last night with my MP and 98% of people there were Brexiters. The elderly (who always vote) in particular were for leave.

    Also in the pubs. The vast majority of the time I overhear people talking about the referendum, people are Brexiters. Most tradesmen I know are Brexiters. Most business owners (SMEs obvioiusly lol) are voting for leave.

    The Remain campaigners need to get it into their thick skulls that talking about people erring towards Brexit like they're a lunatic fringe/small-minded is going to be the death of their campaign. We're talking people from all races, walks of life, backgrounds etc.

    I still think the Remains will have it come voting day. But it will be a lot closer than people think and if Remain don't buck up their ideas, they could even lose it.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ByEeek)
    You are absolutely right. This referendum isn't really about the country. It is about divisions in the Conservative party and we will pay the price. If you ask most people what their top issues are, Europe doesn't even come into the top 5. The economy, job security, the NHS, education etc are much more pressing issues. Yet we are being asked to make a decision that most don't really care about, which is fiercely complex and where the outcome could have severe consequences for years to come.

    It is genuinely scary stuff, especially when so many people will be voting with their hearts (which includes prejudice and this "sticking one to the other lot" attitude) and not their heads.
    The EU contribute quite a lot to the economy though, not only through its trading regulations but obviously, through the way it has affected population levels and spread throughout the country. This directly relates massively to job security.

    But really the thing is when we vote in these referendums and even in elections in general we ought to not be voting based on what will help us as individuals the most, but instead, what will help the country prosper the most in the long run.

    In the long run it will benefit job security, job salaries, the NHS, education funding as well as cultural stability to leave the EU and by the long run I mean 20 years down the line.

    Of course politics will be and politics and the reason certain politicians defend certain positions is not necessarily them sincerely believing them to be true but instead them needing to do so for political goals to be achieved. But none of that detracts from the importance of the referendum outcome.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    Only 14.7% of Economists oppose Brexit.

    "The survey was sent out to 3,818 economists. Only 639 (or 16.7%) replied, of which 561 said Brexit would be bad for the economy. That’s just 14.7% of the total number of economists contacted. So rather than nine out of ten economists warning against Brexit, it was actually closer one in seven."

    http://order-order.com/2016/06/09/on...oppose-brexit/
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Wahrheit)
    This is the thing, I feel like either way I won't be happy down the line, it'll be 'what if' no matter what. The good news is, if we leave and go badly then people are going to hate Gove even more, so we'll have less chance of him running the country!

    Honestly I'm 50/50 which way I'm going to vote atm though. I love Europe and European integration, I live in London and it warms my heart to hear 20 different langauges every day. But the Remain campaign just annoys me so much, it's always "if we leave Europe" (we aren't moving Great Britain across the ocean, GB will always be part of Europe), and other thinly veiled pieces of propaganda (leave is guilty of this too but seems less patronising). The worst is how they paint the Leave campaign..if you believe them, its only racists, bigots and people who don't understand economics who want to leave the EU. They treat you like an idiot if you even consider it, and honestly that makes me want to leave the EU just as a big middle finger to all the condescending Remain campaigners.

    So aside from that (somewhat childish) reason for wanting to leave, I want the absolute best for the UK and for Europe. I think we'd be absolutely fine if we left, honestly. We're a strong country, we've bounced back from worse than leaving the EU (wwii comes to mind). It'd be nice to feel like we aren't ruled remotely be people we didn't elect. I don't like the EU's political orientation and want nothing to do with that, they currently have an optional holocaust denial law where member states can punish people with up to 3 years in prison for holocaust denial. Thankfully the UK government cares more about our rights than to implement that, but what about if they make that compulsory and hit us with fines for not complying with it?

    So my vote will be balancing my love of Europe and its people vs my love of freedom and sovereignty + how annoyed I am with the Remain campaign on 23rd June.
    We'd always be a part of Europe, even if we're not a part of the European Union.

    To even consider sacrificing my and other people's freedom just because you love Europe (even though you can both love Europe and be out of the EU) is selfish in a scenario like this.

    I know this is blunt and it sounds emotionally blackmailing but it's the truth.

    (And I can prop this up with both economic and democratic arguments if you want.)
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    I agree with most of the OPs points above, but not this point about it being a stand against "the elites".

    I think annoyance with "the elites" is what has put a lot of people off the campaign altogether, because lets be honest the Leave campaign is also full of elites telling us what to do, throwing out spurious facts.

    How are Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Nigel Farage etc anything other than "elites".

    They are all wealthy and enjoy political power of their own and access to others of influence. Now they are trying to position themselves as some kind of anti-establishment voice of the people, talking about saving the NHS, unaffordable hoursing, access to public services, workers rights and low wages.

    Those four don't give a **** about the NHS, unaffordable housing, public services, workers rights and low wages. They have never campaigned about it in their lives before, until now suddenly they start championing it. If we leave the EU and they have got what they want on that lets see how their tune changes, they will go back to telling us the NHS needs to be reformed and more private markets involved, restrict planning permission to keep house prices high, slashing funding for public services, removing workers rights under the guise of "reducing red tape for businesses".

    They are just opportunists using arguments that they don't care about but that they think people will care about, because its convenient to them in this referendum. They are two faced "elites".
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    The Remain campaign has been abysmal and has been based on treating the public like idiots. Not that the Leave campaign has been much better, mind.

    I have actually been impressed with the Labour Leave campaign - set up and run by the few remaining Labourites who don't despise the British working class. The fact that the EU is awful for the workers doesn't really affect my plan to vote for remain as the upside is good for big business but anybody who claims to represent the workers would be out of their mind to want to be in the EU. How does setting up the severe undercutting of their wages help the workers? It's insane, which is why the main Remain campaign has been utterly crap and why whenever you ask most Remainers about the whole issue, they neary always come out with nothing but nonsense. Like Eddie Izzard for example.
    Fair enough, I had you down as a Brexiter tbh.

    Eddie Izzard definitely went over the top on QT but it's worth noting that Farage kept swerving his question. It was entertaining if nothing else.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    I agree with most of the OPs points above, but not this point about it being a stand against "the elites".

    I think annoyance with "the elites" is what has put a lot of people off the campaign altogether, because lets be honest the Leave campaign is also full of elites telling us what to do, throwing out spurious facts.

    How are Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Nigel Farage etc anything other than "elites".

    They are all wealthy and enjoy political power of their own and access to others of influence. Now they are trying to position themselves as some kind of anti-establishment voice of the people, talking about saving the NHS, unaffordable hoursing, access to public services, workers rights and low wages.

    Those four don't give a **** about the NHS, unaffordable housing, public services, workers rights and low wages. They have never campaigned about it in their lives before, until now suddenly they start championing it. If we leave the EU and they have got what they want on that lets see how their tune changes, they will go back to telling us the NHS needs to be reformed and more private markets involved, restrict planning permission to keep house prices high, slashing funding for public services, removing workers rights under the guise of "reducing red tape for businesses".

    They are just opportunists using arguments that they don't care about but that they think people will care about, because its convenient to them in this referendum. They are two faced "elites".
    I actually respect Farage(despite disagreeing with him) as he's true to what he's spouting, Boris is just a parasite who's after the PM's job and acting purely out of self-interest. As you say the pretense that it's a stand against the elites from that lot is laughable.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Fair enough, I had you down as a Brexiter tbh.

    Eddie Izzard definitely went over the top on QT but it's worth noting that Farage kept swerving his question. It was entertaining if nothing else.
    Farage didn't swerve it, he answered very reasonably that it doesn't matter that he was the son of immigrants, he's still perfectly right to campaign for controlled, sensible immigration.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Fair enough, I had you down as a Brexiter tbh.

    Eddie Izzard definitely went over the top on QT but it's worth noting that Farage kept swerving his question. It was entertaining if nothing else.
    He ignored the point because it was absolutely facile. Such a childish, childish, petulant, baby like thing to keep blathering on about. Talk about an over-emotive moron.

    What does Farage's ancestry being European have to do with it? It is simply a ridiculous strawmen to portray Farage as wanting no more Europeans in Britain and/or wanting all Europeans in Britain to be kicked out. All he wants is for it to be more controlled and thus more efficient and sustainable migration. Therefore he has no qualms with Europeans like his own family that will settle in Britain, adapt to its culture well and aid our society.

    It had no relevance to the debate at all; Eddie was just embarrassing himself the fool.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Just to add to the Leave swing...

    John Cleese has now declared himself for the Leave side.
    Leave's comedians > Remain's "comedians"

    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    I agree with most of the OPs points above, but not this point about it being a stand against "the elites".

    I think annoyance with "the elites" is what has put a lot of people off the campaign altogether, because lets be honest the Leave campaign is also full of elites telling us what to do, throwing out spurious facts.

    How are Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Nigel Farage etc anything other than "elites".

    They are all wealthy and enjoy political power of their own and access to others of influence. Now they are trying to position themselves as some kind of anti-establishment voice of the people, talking about saving the NHS, unaffordable hoursing, access to public services, workers rights and low wages.

    Those four don't give a **** about the NHS, unaffordable housing, public services, workers rights and low wages. They have never campaigned about it in their lives before, until now suddenly they start championing it. If we leave the EU and they have got what they want on that lets see how their tune changes, they will go back to telling us the NHS needs to be reformed and more private markets involved, restrict planning permission to keep house prices high, slashing funding for public services, removing workers rights under the guise of "reducing red tape for businesses".

    They are just opportunists using arguments that they don't care about but that they think people will care about, because its convenient to them in this referendum. They are two faced "elites".
    People need to stop ****ing talking about elites and ulterior motives. WHO ****ING CARES WHY BORIS SUPPORTS LEAVE. It literally doesn't even matter. Nor does it matter which fancy business man wants us to stay, or which silly economist said we must leave. What matters are the facts and arguments at hand and due to all the scare-mongering of the remain campaign the whole campaign on both sides has been forced to talk ridiculously about who supports what and why. It's just ridiculous.

    The arguments are what matters. Let us decide how to vote based on that. Think with your own mind - don't just vote x because some elite man told you to. Vote what makes sense to you and ignore who thinks what.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TorpidPhil)
    But really the thing is when we vote in these referendums and even in elections in general we ought to not be voting based on what will help us as individuals the most, but instead, what will help the country prosper the most in the long run.
    Agreed. But what is the point in a prosperous country if you are I are not a part of that prosperity. I have absolutely no idea (and I don't think anyone else does either) what the best decision for the country is. However, I do know what the best decision is for me which makes the vote much easier.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TorpidPhil)
    People need to stop ****ing talking about elites and ulterior motives. WHO ****ING CARES WHY BORIS SUPPORTS LEAVE. It literally doesn't even matter. Nor does it matter which fancy business man wants us to stay, or which silly economist said we must leave. What matters are the facts and arguments at hand and due to all the scare-mongering of the remain campaign the whole campaign on both sides has been forced to talk ridiculously about who supports what and why. It's just ridiculous.
    It does matter why Boris supports leave because if leave wins there is a chance he will become PM and with it the real nightmare begins. It also matters what businessmen think, especially if they employ you. As for the facts. There are no facts. Just predictions. No one can predict the future. Any bodies guess is as good as yours.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by generallee)
    In the Oxford bubble there is really only one way to vote. And the same is true in the environments most of you live in I suspect. Everyone is a Remainer, the Outers are the fruitcakes and swivel eyes loons. A minority.
    Complete opposite where I live in Essex, everyone is brexiter. I haven't seen even one poster for remain anywhere. My local paper did a poll, and 72% of people in my town said they would vote leave. In fact I feel there are way more leave voters than remainers, on facebook, on TSR, although that may be just that they have louder voices. Looking on the economists 'Brexit' poll tracker, leave is ahead among the conservatives, UKIP, the north of england, the south, wales, men, women, the poor, and the old.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    One thing that has interested me was the idea that the leave campaign have of how exit would work. They think we can leave the EU, stop the immigration, continue trading without following EU regulations and do it all on better economic terms than are currently in place. (Source radio 4 any questions yesterday) It just sounds like cloud cuckoo land. Existing models of trading include freedom of movement and the continued payment into the EU and regulation, only without any right to vote on the legislation. The only way we could control our borders the way the leave campaign want, is to stop trading with Europe.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by HFBS)
    One thing that has interested me was the idea that the leave campaign have of how exit would work. They think we can leave the EU, stop the immigration, continue trading without following EU regulations and do it all on better economic terms than are currently in place. (Source radio 4 any questions yesterday) It just sounds like cloud cuckoo land. Existing models of trading include freedom of movement and the continued payment into the EU and regulation, only without any right to vote on the legislation. The only way we could control our borders the way the leave campaign want, is to stop trading with Europe.
    The simple, obvious point that your side KEEP missing is that we buy far more from Europe than we sell to them.

    Germany which runs the EU sells 90 billion Euros of goods and services to us every year, for example.

    Of course they say they will stop selling us BMW's and Mercedes' if we leave their little club (and put German workers out of work!) because they are desperate fr us to stay. and want to pressure easily scared voters such as yourself.

    But even a child can see through the argument.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brussels sprouts
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.