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UK European Referendum Watch

  • View Poll Results: Are you voting in or out of the EU?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Aside from the dry scientific fact that there is difference between countries' lands, how are you such a spiritual desert that you have absolutely no understanding of statehood?
    Go and check USA state's history.

    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    how?? we're letting in many undemocratic countries into the EU currently (not just turkey, long term) AND the EU erodes our own democracy! how is that a promotion of democracy?!



    we already do that though! we'd be able to compete further from the outside without slapping tariffs all over the world's markets!



    because it's the communal base and foundation of our democratic governance? the EU is not a community that we identify with; we don't think of "we" when we think of the EU, we think of "us" and "them". you can't have a functioning democracy (not like the EU ever claimed to be such a thing) with very remote links between bases
    Economy and democracy eh? Tariffs eh? Lets see 1980s UK ranking and 2016... NOTHING has changed, we're stalling while western world is going down, we gain more than lose in EU.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Go and check USA state's history.
    um, are you really saying that if the USA was a federation instead of a confederation (if the states aren't to be fully independent colonies) they'd be *more* democratic?

    Economy and democracy eh? Tariffs eh? Lets see 1980s UK ranking and 2016... NOTHING has changed, we're stalling while western world is going down, we gain more than lose in EU.
    switzerland is wealthier than us proportionate to their population and landmass - they're outside, and they've always been outside. they export 5x as much as us to the EU. why are they doing so well from outside? it's almost as if...you don't need the EU...to be prosperous
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    um, are you really saying that if the USA was a federation instead of a confederation (if the states aren't to be fully independent colonies) they'd be *more* democratic?



    switzerland is wealthier than us proportionate to their population and landmass - they're outside, and they've always been outside. they export 5x as much as us to the EU. why are they doing so well from outside? it's almost as if...you don't need the EU...to be prosperous
    They in a different situation than UK.
    Don't forget why European Union was made, to get Russia and USA to p*** off and stop controlling us
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Go and check USA state's history.



    Economy and democracy eh? Tariffs eh? Lets see 1980s UK ranking and 2016... NOTHING has changed, we're stalling while western world is going down, we gain more than lose in EU.
    The USA has a massively different history... the states were founded by similar people, didn't fight and quickly united. The same doesn't go for Europe.

    Also, you're really arguing that the EU, something trying to pass TTIP is giving us freedom from the USA?
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    They in a different situation than UK.
    yeah because they're out!

    Don't forget why European Union was made, to get Russia and USA to p*** off and stop controlling us
    and now the EU *literally* controls half our laws
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    They in a different situation than UK.
    Don't forget why European Union was made, to get Russia and USA to p*** off and stop controlling us
    so let Brussels control us?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    The USA has a massively different history... the states were founded by similar people, didn't fight and quickly united. The same doesn't go for Europe.

    Also, you're really arguing that the EU, something trying to pass TTIP is giving us freedom from the USA?
    Oh come on, you really think TTIP is going to happen? EU is at peace and is intergrating.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    yeah because they're out!



    and now the EU *literally* controls half our laws
    Who cares if they control half of our laws, what would be different if government made them... and yea their out.... and have a different economy than us.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    so let Brussels control us?
    yes
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Who cares if they control half of our laws, what would be different if government made them... and yea their out.... and have a different economy than us.
    how is half our laws "at the very least*) democratic, though? it's emblematic to the fact that we have little control and it's only getting worse, isn't it.
    also, I take issue with your assumption that we'd be making these laws as an independent nation - how do you figure that we'd be voting to subsidise french farms and spanish fisheries as an independent nation? how do you figure we'd be giving ourselves bigger energy bills, or at least bigger to the extent that the EU mandates? how do you figure we'd be bailing out ireland and greece (multiple times) as a non-EU nation? did switzerland do that?
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    yes
    why do you desire that though? :| why should we be controlled by any nation but our own?
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Churchill is rightly credited as a founding father of the EU.
    While at the same time saying that we should not be a part of it, merely work alongside it along with the Russians and Americans

    (Original post by ckfeister)
    aahaha but don't forget in WWII he was leading a European Army rather than British Army... barely any was British.
    He wasn't leading any Army, but if he were leading any it would be that of Britain and the Commonwealth, but let's just take a look at the figures

    The French Resistance were in the low hundreds of thousands, formal French forces topped out at 1.3m on VE Day
    Poles in the RAF: <20,000
    British Army: 3.5m served
    Commonwealth forces: Hard to pin down a figure, but I'm pretty sure at least 5m (mostly volunteers too)

    The European Allied forces on the Western Front were majority British, especially when you add commonwealth forces.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    how is half our laws "at the very least*) democratic, though? it's emblematic to the fact that we have little control and it's only getting worse, isn't it.
    also, I take issue with your assumption that we'd be making these laws as an independent nation - how do you figure that we'd be voting to subsidise french farms and spanish fisheries as an independent nation? how do you figure we'd be giving ourselves bigger energy bills, or at least bigger to the extent that the EU mandates? how do you figure we'd be bailing out ireland and greece (multiple times) as a non-EU nation? did switzerland do that?
    Yes its democratic because they treat all countries fair, why should UK make the laws and not other countries? Its meant to bond EU together from its voilent past.

    Don't be so selfish, its a union for a reason.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    why do you desire that though? :| why should we be controlled by any nation but our own?
    Europe united is better than nationalism
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Yes its democratic because they treat all countries fair, why should UK make the laws and not other countries? Its meant to bond EU together from its voilent past.
    yet here we are - pinned against germany and their ambitions to let in untold numbers of middle eastern men whom will eventually get EU passports to gain entry to the UK. and poland - accepting *zero* "refugees" while we have to accept 20,000. and poland and romania sending hundreds of thousands of their citizens over here making our unemployment and housing problems worse. yeah, this is all going to contribute to better relations? are you ****ing joking?

    Don't be so selfish, its a union for a reason.
    lol "selfish"
    national interest = selfish
    but that's what international relations is all about
    rationally self-interested/self-motivated unitary actors on the world stage, with relative gains being the central consideration

    the UK entered the EEC for national interests
    greece entered the EU for national interests
    switzerland doesn't enter the EU, for national interests
    the UK doesn't go to war with europe, for national interests
    the UK fought against the nazis for national interests
    etc

    it is good to have your country's democratic interest at heart, not to serve another demos - that would be against your own people. you have no idea how states are managed, or ought to be managed. if it were up to you, we wouldn't serve ourselves, we'd serve everybody else, right? because that's the opposite of "selfishness"
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Europe united is better than nationalism
    the EU is about a european nation though, isn't it? it's about forming a single cohesive organ or community called the EU, or to be the united states of europe.
    what else is it about, if it's against the individual countries' nationalisms?
    the EU is becoming a nation because we shut the rest of the world out yet we insulate ourselves from within - if not, why do we tariff the world and not give them the same access to the UK as everybody from within the EU?
    -_-

    I mean, the EU has a united passport system, a flag, an anthem, a president, a (useless) parliament, a court/legal system, a government and civil service, etc - how is this *not* a nation of europe? the EU is a wannabe nation - it is legally but not demographically. we will never feel more european than british - when somebody asks you, for instance, where you come from, you don't tell them "europe" - you either tell them "britain/the UK" or england (if I'm assuming that you're english)
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    yet here we are - pinned against germany and their ambitions to let in untold numbers of middle eastern men whom will eventually get EU passports to gain entry to the UK. and poland - accepting *zero* "refugees" while we have to accept 20,000. and poland and romania sending hundreds of thousands of their citizens over here making our unemployment and housing problems worse. yeah, this is all going to contribute to better relations? are you ****ing joking?



    lol "selfish"
    national interest = selfish
    but that's what international relations is all about
    rationally self-interested/self-motivated unitary actors on the world stage, with relative gains being the central consideration

    the UK entered the EEC for national interests
    greece entered the EU for national interests
    switzerland doesn't enter the EU, for national interests
    the UK doesn't go to war with europe, for national interests
    the UK fought against the nazis for national interests
    etc

    it is good to have your country's democratic interest at heart, not to serve another demos - that would be against your own people. you have no idea how states are managed, or ought to be managed. if it were up to you, we wouldn't serve ourselves, we'd serve everybody else, right? because that's the opposite of "selfishness"
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    the EU is about a european nation though, isn't it? it's about forming a single cohesive organ or community called the EU, or to be the united states of europe.
    what else is it about, if it's against the individual countries' nationalisms?
    the EU is becoming a nation because we shut the rest of the world out yet we insulate ourselves from within - if not, why do we tariff the world and not give them the same access to the UK as everybody from within the EU?
    -_-
    Some national interests are good, some are bad... imagine if your them in their country and someone refused to help you out in EU... wouldn't you be annoyed?

    EU-Asia deal is being done, EU-USA deal is being done. Influenced by PM David Cameron
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Some national interests are good, some are bad... imagine if your them in their country and someone refused to help you out in EU... wouldn't you be annoyed?
    why would you suggest that the UK is entitled to the help of other nations? nations must earn the assistance of other nations in the world - they can't just expect it like some kind of bratty child. alliances must be built through historical co-operation. if a country doesn't help the UK, why should we help them? and vice versa. the UK is a very strong and influential country - we don't need to the help of countries like poland and estonia anyway - forget them - they're nothing, relatively speaking.

    EU-Asia deal is being done, EU-USA deal is being done. Influenced by PM David Cameron
    oh what, so you're telling me only just now these trade deals are being completed? why weren't they done *decades* ago? :| the swiss have had these deals from the outside for YEARS! with the EU, each and every individual member state must assent, so it takes forever to organise - that's the deliberate inefficiency-by-design structure of the EU that is dragging us down into this economic drain
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    why would you suggest that the UK is entitled to the help of other nations? nations must earn the assistance of other nations in the world - they can't just expect it like some kind of bratty child. alliances must be built through historical co-operation. if a country doesn't help the UK, why should we help them? and vice versa. the UK is a very strong and influential country - we don't need to the help of countries like poland and estonia anyway - forget them - they're nothing, relatively speaking.



    oh what, so you're telling me only just now these trade deals are being completed? why weren't they done *decades* ago? :| the swiss have had these deals from the outside for YEARS! with the EU, each and every individual member state must assent, so it takes forever to organise - that's the deliberate inefficiency-by-design structure of the EU that is dragging us down into this economic drain
    EU is progressing.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Yes, get rid of this Eurozone and make a United States of Europe.. with state rights etc like America... its going to happen one way or another, if we leave future generations will just vote in its pathetic to even consider leaving when we'll just be back at square one in like 100 years when it probably would be a superstate.
    Is there a way to remain but not become the United States of Europe, because that sounds horrific.


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