Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Leave's biggest asset: Anti-intellectualism watch

  • View Poll Results: Will you vote Leave or Remain?
    Results hidden until poll closes.

    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by similarBlank)
    Ah, thank you for your assistance; now I don't have to bother finding an example of the Remain camp ignoring facts.

    Whoa, you actually used a Guardian and local news article to make your point? That makes as reliable an argument as if I were to copy and paste pages from the Daily Express.

    Taking "facts" from the Guardian seriously is like believing a drunk guy when he tells you he's all right to drive. (It's likely to end in the same result as well.)

    Everything I said is correct and true, whether you, or the rest of the Remain campaign, like it or not.

    Look it up and Vote Leave.
    It's not really complicated. As societies develop, birth rates decline and populations shrink. It's happening in some countries already, and it will happen to us very soon, long before the overpopulation apocalypse that you seem to be predicting. We're never going to "run out of resources" or any of this nonsense.

    Immigration right now, especially from the EU, is overwhelmingly beneficial and they pay for themselves easily. In the future it will be even more important as our population starts to decline. Unfortunately, it's looking like the xenophobe cavemen would rather we end up like Japan than bring in some much-needed immigrants.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    It's not really complicated. As societies develop, birth rates decline and populations shrink. It's happening in some countries already, and it will happen to us very soon, long before the overpopulation apocalypse that you seem to be predicting. We're never going to "run out of resources" or any of this nonsense.

    Immigration right now, especially from the EU, is overwhelmingly beneficial and they pay for themselves easily. In the future it will be even more important as our population starts to decline. Unfortunately, it's looking like the xenophobe cavemen would rather we end up like Japan than bring in some much-needed immigrants.
    In a society where death rates are higher and birth rates you're right. Britain is not one of those societies. Birth rates in Britain are very high and increasing whereas death rates are considerably lower and decreasing.

    With controlled immigration, you're right. Immigrants can be very beneficial to our country and economy. Mass immigration, as we have to have while in the EU, puts pressure on our services and resources. In the long term it's simply unsustainable.

    Controlled immigration may result in the birth rates decline you predict, to which we'd just allow more migrants in to resolve this. When continued mass immigration occurs and a country's population sky-rockets, it doesn't tend to go back down again, i.e. China and India. China, in particular, saw that it had a dangerously high population and had attempted to decrease it's birth rate by making it illegal to have more than one children. Even with this, what would be considered in other countries, rather extreme policy the birth rate hasn't gone below the death rate. China hasn't seen a decrease in it's population since the 1960's. Now, China's problem was high population due to their extremely high birth rate. They put in a policy to control this, and it worked, it's now down to a reasonable level. Britain's problem is high population (Or, atleast, a potentially much higher population) due to it's high, mass immigration. I don't see what's wrong with controlling immigration to sought this out and get it down to a reasonable level which suits our economy and population level just right.

    Basically, having an extremely high population puts a country's birth/death rates in a status quo of high birth rates and low death rates and, if the population reaches a high enough population, it is incredibly hard to get the birth rate lower without resorting to measures such as the one-child policy of China.


    (Original post by JordanL_)
    We're never going to "run out of resources"
    .... This isn't a game, we didn't pick up the 'Infinite Resources' Power Up.

    Fact: Resources are finite.

    Fact: Finite means 'limited in size or extent', i.e. it can/will run out.

    Unless, of course, society finds another solution to finite resources, which, thus far, it apparently hasn't.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    When at first you don't succeed try to scare them, when that fails, insult them, what's going to be the final last ditch tactic used on Thursday?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by similarBlank)
    Fact: Britain is a small island of 243,610 km².

    Fact: We have a population of nearly 65 Million.

    Fact: This is overcrowded as it is, as shown by the fact that the United Kingdom has the third highest population density, with 679 pop./mi², in Europe.

    Fact: We do not have infinite room.

    Fact: We do not have infinite resources.

    Fact: Being in the EU forces us to keep our borders open, causing us to have net migration of over 300,000, with potentially a much larger number in the future.

    Fact: If this continues, we will simply eventually run out of space and resources and everyone, except the establishment and the well off, will become more poorer than ever.

    Fact: The Remain camp, and people such as those at Dover today with 'migrants welcome' placards, seem to completely ignore and disregard these facts that are right in front of us.

    I completely agree with you:

    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.

    #VoteLeave
    This is a very narrow and binary view of the problem.

    What about the countless academics, economists, and UN organisations including the IMF who say we should #VoteRemain?

    According to you guys

    Remain=fear
    Leave=Hope

    In time of crisis, I completely understand that people side with what will ostensibly fix the country. They need hope.

    But it's a lot more complicated than that. EU or not, the post-war phase is over. Low tech jobs are not coming back.

    What future for a country in love with its past and a hatred for all things smart in an increasingly smart job market?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    If you agree with this, please share it with fellow voters. Thank you.
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    I don't agree with such things myself because i for example accept that the treasury's worst scenario is probably about right (though not that bad) however i can kind of understand why. When the Remain campaign are rolling out tonnes of 'evidence' that all paints one extreme picture (because they select which bits of it to mention) it all makes it look like its a bit of a fix for the layman. Why is the IMF saying things will be so bad instead of going for their moderate scenario ect.. i also think that in the UK politicians on the left especially don't help because the working classes have a perception that some of the Islington set kind of talk down to them and view them as racist for what they think are genuine concerns.

    So i agree with you but i understand why it happens.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Whenever an expert weighs in on Brexit, Leave dismiss everything they say as fear mongering. Cynicism is so easy. And cynics don't accomplish much.


    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down. Ignorance is not a virtue. Of course we should listen to experts as long as they are impartial. When Leave express a disdain for facts, and are not held accountable for repeating falsehoods, and just making stuff up while actual experts are dismissed as elitist, then we’ve got a problem.


    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.

    EDIT: If you agree, share this with fellow voters who are undecided.
    Both campaigns have talked a lot of codswallop. Most experts have a bias one way or the other. And funnily enough, it's a lot easier to argue for the status quo and predict what will happen if we stay in the EU. Brexit makes things far more uncertain, so claiming to have 100% factual information about it is ridiculous.

    And to be honest, when the Remain politicians are literally threatening voters with policies they will implement if Brexit occurs, that is blatant scaremongering.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Ignore IMF and the other experts.
    This is the problem with people who want to leave. They want to believe that everything will be rosy when we leave, but this is all fantasy! They decide to ignore the professionals and decide to listen to Farage and Boris! It is unbelievable!
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    This is the problem with people who want to leave. They want to believe that everything will be rosy when we leave, but this is all fantasy! They decide to ignore the professionals and decide to listen to Farage and Boris! It is unbelievable!
    The problem with the remain campaign is they're on the brink of saying the world will literally implode if we leave, and if not they will make sure it does. It's also worth noting that a lot of remain work either takes a set of parameters that vary from things being a bit better to a bit worse, they then plug the absolute worse of all parameters into their models, and then quote the absolute worse figure in the range that the model gives. Alternatively, if collating other work there is a lot of cherry picking in there, even omitting very respected works because it's giving the "wrong" conclusion. To say there is intellectual honesty on either side, let alone the remain side, is simply laughable.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The problem with the remain campaign is they're on the brink of saying the world will literally implode if we leave, and if not they will make sure it does. It's also worth noting that a lot of remain work either takes a set of parameters that vary from things being a bit better to a bit worse, they then plug the absolute worse of all parameters into their models, and then quote the absolute worse figure in the range that the model gives. Alternatively, if collating other work there is a lot of cherry picking in there, even omitting very respected works because it's giving the "wrong" conclusion. To say there is intellectual honesty on either side, let alone the remain side, is simply laughable.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I agree, both sides are bending some facts to suit themselves, but this is nothing new, it happens in almost every election/referendum.

    This thread is about how the leave campaign deny every single economic report about leaving The EU. These reports aren't from the Remain side, but from independent bodies- this is what makes it even more moronic.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The problem with the remain campaign is they're on the brink of saying the world will literally implode if we leave.
    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I have to disagree. I think most 'Remainers' say that we will be able to cope, but we will face some tough times.

    I admit some people on the remain side, mainly Tory's (Osbourne and Cameron) do paint an awful, awful picture which isn't the reality.





    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    I have to disagree. I think most 'Remainers' say that we will be able to cope, but we will face some tough times.

    I admit some people on the remain side, mainly Tory's (Osbourne and Cameron) do paint an awful, awful picture which isn't the reality.





    Posted from TSR Mobile
    They aren't lying though.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Name:  ImageUploadedByStudent Room1466355996.564425.jpg
Views: 38
Size:  90.9 KB

    Just saw this. I am going to admit it isn't completely accurate- Pretty sure Arlene Foster wants to leave. But it is still very relevant for this topic.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 16characterlimit)
    They aren't lying though.
    Who aren't lying? I didn't say anyone was lying, I just said that some facts are being exaggerated


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    I have to disagree. I think most 'Remainers' say that we will be able to cope, but we will face some tough times.

    I admit some people on the remain side, mainly Tory's (Osbourne and Cameron) do paint an awful, awful picture which isn't the reality.





    Posted from TSR Mobile
    And who's heard?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Whenever an expert weighs in on Brexit, Leave dismiss everything they say as fear mongering. Cynicism is so easy. And cynics don't accomplish much.


    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down. Ignorance is not a virtue. Of course we should listen to experts as long as they are impartial. When Leave express a disdain for facts, and are not held accountable for repeating falsehoods, and just making stuff up while actual experts are dismissed as elitist, then we’ve got a problem.


    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.

    EDIT: If you agree, share this with fellow voters who are undecided.
    Lets have a look at some facts and trends

    1. The rejection of facts, If we are to stay in the European union we certainly will have immigration of around 100,000-150,000 each year from Europe- we still have to put 150,000 from Asia and Africa on top of that, but we can control that by issuing less visas.
    2. The remain side claim that we have an housing crisis because we do not build enough houses but if you ask me with uncontrolled immigration, how do we know how many houses will need to be built from one year to the next, this factor just does one thing pushes up prices of the houses so the people with all the money, land and buildings will make a huge profit out of selling the houses. There are footballers who are overpaid (some) by millions of pounds a year, this enables them to buy as much property as they wish and then when they retire they can sell there land for a massive profit because the demand for housing outstrips the supply. I believe Fowler brought a whole street in his playing days , if he has sold some of those he would make a lot of money. It is however very bad for people who are young to get access to ever increasing funding required to purchase property.
    3. The remain camp claim that leaving the EU will make people worse off, to a certain degree I agree with this comment in terms of free trade and many jobs being lost, but would it cost us less in tariffs then what our EU fees are, I would think so. I don't think Tariffs would be more than 35 million pound a day.
    4. Mass immigration keeps the wages down, why?- Maybe because many immigrants especially those coming from Poland work in sweatshops, Primark paid a lot of Polish Immigrants well below the minimum wage in the UK sweatshop in Manchester- that was in 2008, but i have no doubt it still goes on, they was paid £3 a hour in 2008 when the minimum wage was a lot higher even then, it is paid cash in hand, so it cannot be traced. This drives down wages because it saves them hiring English workers on the Minimum wage or Living wage (depending on age). For more skilled jobs immigration also drives wages down because the wage demands of a Polish man who has came to England will be a lot lower than an established skilled tradesman
    5. The EU killed our secondary sector when we joined, we had a green (environmental) tax but on our production so it cost more for us to export to the EU, production fell in England, China who do not have this restriction took all the trade, and we just import from them now which means we now make virtually nothing.
    Offline

    6
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Whenever an expert weighs in on Brexit, Leave dismiss everything they say as fear mongering. Cynicism is so easy. And cynics don't accomplish much.


    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down. Ignorance is not a virtue. Of course we should listen to experts as long as they are impartial. When Leave express a disdain for facts, and are not held accountable for repeating falsehoods, and just making stuff up while actual experts are dismissed as elitist, then we’ve got a problem.


    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.

    EDIT: If you agree, share this with fellow voters who are undecided.
    Its not anti-intellectualism - The problem is that many students have had no experience of life outside of educational institutions, they are divorced from the realities of the real world as they have never experienced them. A bit like a Monarch that is protected and cut of from any possibility of having a concept of what daily life is like for most people.

    This makes many students form opinions that don't work in reality. They are so confident that the reasoning, belief or sound of what they are proposing is sound but they have no life experience to judge it against.

    Just like the EU - the notions it comes out with sound good but the reality on the ground is devastating i.e. free movement leading to rising homelessness this year (The Times). Now an intellectual will come up with a variety of intellectually thought out solutions, build more homes, etc. but few will work in reality, or deny its a problem until getting out of uni and finding it is as he/she cannot find/buy a home, employment problems, etc.

    I've been a student and thought from the intellectual standpoint but found post uni the world is not how education paints it.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    The $117.5 billion London-based European arm of Goldman Sachs Asset Management has warned a UK vote to leave the European Union in June could "affect" how it does business, as it revealed its profits surged to a four-year high in 2015.

    The credit crisis created by banks, helped to push over 100 million people over the poverty line. People who pass the poverty line, have a much lower life expectancy than those above it. The banking crisis probably killed more people than WW2. Paul Moore Barrister, whistleblower HBOS

    These are the bankers who fund the Remain Campaign, and you want to vote for them? Its utterly sickening.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    There are idiots on both sides. There are people on the remain side who believe that trying to slow immigration is racist.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    True. Don't need to look far to find those who just flat out ignore facts. "oh nah it goes against what i am voting for therefore its not true. I'll just clutch at these straws here " "rolleyes:
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: June 22, 2016
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.