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TSR's Big EU Referendum- The Panel Debates @19:30 Watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    But of the trade agreements we current have via the EU how many would you regard as incredibly important to Britain, beyond with the EU itself, and considering how long it took other nations to make similar deals with many of these countries should we really be concerned ? For instance most nations with Singapore took less than 2 years.
    Regardless, being part of the EU gives us more clout at the negotiating table and therefore better terms in every deal. When it comes to economics - the answer is to remain.
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    And thats the end of topic 1, trade and finance. I appreciate 15 minutes per topic isn't a great amount of time, but sadly we don't have all night.

    And we move onto topic 2, Free movement of people and labour, and our stimulus question

    The United Kingdom’s open door policy allows skilled workers to come into our country and benefit our economy, however our nation's public services such as education and health are under strain because of this’ Your thoughts on the validity of this statement?
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    In this debate, you’ll probably hear the phrase “take back control” or “take back our borders” a few times. But I don’t want to take us back.I want to take us forward. The EU is a positive, progressive and outward looking entity, and it is one I believe we should remain a part of.Immigration has been a large part of the Brexit campaign, but to be absolutely frank, it is a deeply flawed arguments.

    Should we leave the EU, we will have to negotiate a brand new trade deal with the European Union, whether we like it or not. We could re-enter the single market, at the cost of re-allowing freedom of movement of EU citizens into the UK (and UK citizens into the EU) and having to follow the vast majority of EU regulations, or alternatively, strike a trade deal without entering the market which would include tariffs, those same EU regulations and very likely, freedom of movement.What I’m trying to say here is, there is no way we can control EU migration.

    But migration isn’t the only argument relevant here. Before you vote, you’ve got to remember that around 3.5 million British jobs are directly linked to membership of the Single Market - that’s 1 in 10 British Jobs! The EU has legislated for workers rights, maternity rights and so many more, protecting you from any employers willing and trying to exploit you.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Regardless, being part of the EU gives us more clout at the negotiating table and therefore better terms in every deal. When it comes to economics - the answer is to remain.
    IF it gives us so much more clout then why is it that the EU is generally only capable of getting deals with tiny, broadly irrelevant nations and has great difficulties with the larger nations?
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    Free Movement of People & Labour.
    ==============================

    What if I told you that Gangs are coming to Britain to force out young children to work as begging slaves?
    Source:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/fr...00/9618038.stm

    What if I told you that the main reason groups like the EDL constantly protest is because they see themselves as "second class citizens" due to rapid immigration and the growth of Islam?
    Source:
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....-more-11409320

    What if I told you Bob Geldof multi-millionaire literally gave a 2 finger salute to the UK Fisherman & coastal working class communties while they have been trying to adapt against the hostile shrinking job markets?
    Source:
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/680...-EU-referendum

    What if I told you that last year 75% of jobs went to EU Nationals?
    Source:
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...ket-job-losses

    If I told you all these things without written evidence you would just wave me off as someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.

    But that mode of thinking is exactly what is creating a good majority of these problems while endorsing a organisation which is far more undemocratic than the majority of authotarian groups in our country.

    That organisation is the undemocratic EU which literally wouldn't offer David Cameron any adjustment on the Free Movement of Labor policy.

    This means you have to put up with more headlines like the above.The remain camp will try and refute these head-lines as Daily Mail spin but remember 1 thing. The law of thermodynamics is much like poverty and wealth. Poor people will always be attracted to those who are rich. It will take a short amount of time until all Eastern-Europes poverty is exported to wealthy nations like ours.The obvious choice is to leave the EU.
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    Remain: Can I put it to you in regards to the Switzerland or Norway model. Could the UK replicate something similar if we left

    Leave: As we are not a part of the EU's Schengen area, does this give us more freedom over who enters out country, should we remain
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    we've managed this in large part to our membership of such an important bloc
    There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim. You need only look to Norway and Switzerland to see how countries can thrive in Europe and outside of the EU. Some (e.g. around two thirds of British SMEs) would argue that we've done well in spite of the EU!

    If we were to leave the EU we'd have to renegotiate the deals that have led us to this point. This would take years
    1) It would take years to complete all trade deals but we would start at the top and work our way down (to smaller trading partners), no worries

    2) As noted above, we have a minimum 2 years grace in terms of maintaining the current terms of EU treaties

    the MEPs that we elect vote on the deals
    MEPs have seriously limited legislative powers and are not, in essence, the political executive of the EU

    We'd lose that democratic control if we were to leave and our deals would be made behind closed doors
    I see no reason to suppose that the deals done by HM Government would be any less transparent than those conducted in Brussels 'on our behalf'
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    You claim that the EU is responsible for all these rights, but it is simply false, paid holiday was legislated for in the Holiday with Pay Act 1938, on top of that we offer nearly 50% more paid holiday than required by the EU. On matters of pay discrimination the Equal Pay Act 1970 also came in before EU membership. With disrimination the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 protects from sex discrimination and the race relations acts 1965, 68, 75 etc from racial discrimination, again, without the EU. On the matter of maternity, again, not only did UK law come first but supersedes the EU directives. I cannot remember the pieces off the top of my head, but pieces from 1992 and 1998 (the 98 piece coming into force nearly 6 months before the EU directive) not only guarantee maternity leave not only for the EU's 14 wees, but a whole year, but also guarantees pay, something not required at all by the EU.

    sorry for not linking the acts, time is somewhat limited
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    We do not "send" the EU £350million per week as most of it never even leaves the UK
    Indeed we do not. The truth is, £350 million would be due, per week, had Thatcher et al. not managed to armtwist the EU into giving us a rebate, whereas in fact the funds actually sent to Brussels amount to £250 million per week. Still not a figure to be sniffed at!
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    Leave: Craig from the audience has this comment to make- baring in mind he is a remainer, although does have his own issues with free movement

    (Original post by Craig1998)
    This is the only argument that the leave campaign certainly has in it's grasps. But there are still a couple of flaws to it. For example, we have a deal with France which is made through the EU to ensure that vehicles travelling from France to the UK are checked by UK officers. If we leave the EU, this deal will be stopped, suggesting MORE migrants may be able to get into the UK.We also have refugees from places like Syria and Somalia, which are far poorer than us. What we'd be doing by leaving is just leaving the problem to the rest of Europe, whilst we ignore it. This is not a fair way to deal with this problem, we should let these people in (who have a benefit to our economy, may I add) and atleast allow them some refuge until issues like the conflicts in Syria and Somalia are over.
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    The United Kingdom’s open door policy allows skilled workers to come into our country and benefit our economy, however our nation's public services such as education and health are under strain because of this’ Your thoughts on the validity of this statement?
    I strongly disagree. In an open letter to The Times over 200 healthcare professionals pledged their support for Remain. In the letter they stated "We have made enormous progress over decades in international health research, health services innovation and public health. Much has been built around shared policies and capacity across the EU".

    If The EU is destroying our NHS (and other public services) I am sure the health professionals would be supporting a Brexit, which they are not.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    So if we're not meant to listen to experts on the subject, who are we meant to listen to? Nigel down the pub? Boris the Baboon? Gove....let's not get started on Gove.
    You mean like the experts who put Argentina & Zimbabwae into major recessions? recessions? i meant economic collapse silly me! The European Central Bank has many of these so called experts and they are now doing stupid amounts of QE to try and save a failing system which they themselves created though there so called "expertise".

    source:
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9a45a960-e...#axzz4C9B03wn2
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    And thats the end of topic 1, trade and finance. I appreciate 15 minutes per topic isn't a great amount of time, but sadly we don't have all night.

    And we move onto topic 2, Free movement of people and labour, and our stimulus question

    The United Kingdom’s open door policy allows skilled workers to come into our country and benefit our economy, however our nation's public services such as education and health are under strain because of this’ Your thoughts on the validity of this statement?
    I believe this statement is completely invalid. Even if migrants were causing a massive strain on public services, no one is seriously saying we'll deport all EU nationals, so to claim that this sudden strain caused by "EU Migrants" will disappear if we leave is false. The fact is, however, that EU migrants aren't a strain on our public services. On the contrary, they prop it up.

    Let me give you three facts on the NHS.

    Almost 5% of the entire NHS workforce are EU Migrants.

    Almost 10% of the NHS England doctors are EU Migrants.

    The UK is the single largest developed country that relies on importing Doctors.
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Remain: Can I put it to you in regards to the Switzerland or Norway model. Could the UK replicate something similar if we left

    Leave: As we are not a part of the EU's Schengen area, does this give us more freedom over who enters out country, should we remain
    While we are not a part of Schengen that does not really mean we have control of our borders when it comes to EU migrants. While it does mean we have a physical border in place and we can track those legally entering and leaving the country (except via Ireland and the crown dependencies) it does not give us the right to refuse entry, which is ultimately the problem that many people see, we need control of who we let in, something we cannot do inside the EU.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim. You need only look to Norway and Switzerland to see how countries can thrive in Europe and outside of the EU. Some (e.g. around two thirds of British SMEs) would argue that we've done well in spite of the EU!

    1) It would take years to complete all trade deals but we would start at the top and work our way down (to smaller trading partners), no worries

    2) As noted above, we have a minimum 2 years grace in terms of maintaining the current terms of EU treaties

    MEPs have seriously limited legislative powers and are not, in essence, the political executive of the EU

    I see no reason to suppose that the deals done by HM Government would be any less transparent than those conducted in Brussels 'on our behalf'
    Norway and Switzerland both accept the free movement of people - coincidently what we're discussing now. They need to follow the same EU regulations and pay into the single-market. The difference is they don't get the representation we get.

    They're 'outside' the EU. But not outside it.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Free Movement of People & Labour.
    ==============================

    What if I told you that Gangs are coming to Britain to force out young children to work as begging slaves?
    Source:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/fr...00/9618038.stm
    i would say that the issue is the police need more money to deal with this.

    What if I told you that the main reason groups like the EDL constantly protest is because they see themselves as "second class citizens" due to rapid immigration and the growth of Islam?
    Source:
    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....-more-11409320
    i would say that they need to stop being islamophobic and learn to accept other people instead of scapegoating them.

    What if I told you Bob Geldof multi-millionaire literally gave a 2 finger salute to the UK Fisherman & coastal working class communties while they have been trying to adapt against the hostile shrinking job markets?
    Source:
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/680...-EU-referendum
    i would say that UK unemployment is at a record low and that the government should invest in creating jobs there.

    What if I told you that last year 75% of jobs went to EU Nationals?
    Source:
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...ket-job-losses
    I would say why is that bad? Why should we discriminate against the world just to look after ourselves? If an EU worker is better then a British one, or will do jobs that Britain won't why is that bad?

    If I told you all these things without written evidence you would just wave me off as someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.

    But that mode of thinking is exactly what is creating a good majority of these problems while endorsing a organisation which is far more undemocratic than the majority of authotarian groups in our country.

    That organisation is the undemocratic EU which literally wouldn't offer David Cameron any adjustment on the Free Movement of Labor policy.

    This means you have to put up with more headlines like the above.The remain camp will try and refute these head-lines as Daily Mail spin but remember 1 thing. The law of thermodynamics is much like poverty and wealth. Poor people will always be attracted to those who are rich. It will take a short amount of time until all Eastern-Europes poverty is exported to wealthy nations like ours.The obvious choice is to leave the EU.
    the EU is not undemocratic which we will discuss later.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    You mean like the experts who put Argentina & Zimbabwae into major recessions? recessions? i meant economic collapse silly me! The European Central Bank has many of these so called experts and they are now doing stupid amounts of QE to try and save a failing system which they themselves created though there so called "expertise".

    source:
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9a45a960-e...#axzz4C9B03wn2
    Just for any non economists, just confirming QE is Quantitative Easing- Its like printing money [Not technically that, but we don't have time to get into the specifics]
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    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    I strongly disagree. In an open letter to The Times over 200 healthcare professionals pledged their support for Remain. In the letter they stated "We have made enormous progress over decades in international health research, health services innovation and public health. Much has been built around shared policies and capacity across the EU".

    If The EU is destroying our NHS (and other public services) I am sure the health professionals would be supporting a Brexit, which they are not.
    You say 200 healthcare workers are in favour of remaining, but there are over one MILLION people working in the NHS, meaning that these 200 are not even 0.02% of the whole, and a recent poll showed that most nurses are in favour of leaving, if you want to listen to the professionals and experts then why is it that the nurses are wrong, especially considering that group thinking tends to be more accurate than individuals?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Norway and Switzerland both accept the free movement of people - coincidently what we're discussing now. They need to follow the same EU regulations and pay into the single-market. The difference is they don't get the representation we get.

    They're 'outside' the EU. But not outside it.
    With the crippling cost of some regulations, and the damage caused by regulation, surely we should welcome most of the economy being relieved from them. Further, do you support the idea of trying to also enter into a political union with the likes of America, Russia, China, and the UAE so we can have next to no say in the rules governing our exports to those countries?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    As we've discussed in our opening statement the EU is essential to our economic prosperity
    Over a thousand years of British history and hundreds of years of economic/mercantile pre-eminence outside of an 'EU' suggests otherwise

    what we put in only constitutes half a percentage of our GDP and that's why every reputable economic institution backs remaining
    It's a bit more than that, and to put it in relevant terms, as above, it constitutes 20%, or one fifth, of our sizeable public finances budget deficit

    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I think there's credence to the idea that we'd be at the 'back of the queue' as President Obama put it. Countries like the USA want to deal with trading blocs over smaller nations
    We do £330bn of trade with the US each year. If you seriously think US a is going to kiss that goodbye then you're not living in the real world

    We mustn't mistake isolation for freedom
    If you can see the bigger picture then you can clearly appreciate how burying ourselves in an increasingly dictatorial and inward looking EU is no way to go about combating isolationism or bringing about freedom!

    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    So if we're not meant to listen to experts on the subject, who are we meant to listen to? Nigel down the pub? Boris the Baboon? Gove....let's not get started on Gove.
    Politics of personality is best left in the tabloids, don't you think?..
 
 
 
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