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Brexit is the single biggest threat to the UK and Europe watch

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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I've personally found that developed arguments are equally ignored by the majority of people here. This video outlines some clear threats to Brexit, I'm just spreading the message because Owen Jones' original video only has about 24,000 views and it needs to be viewed more before people start putting imaginary playthings like democracy and sovreignty over the potential post-Brexit risks. If you have a problem with them being 'assumptions' or 'underdeveloped' - both is achieved in the video. But if I had written some massive paragraph of developed points, very few would actually go over it.
    I've made my own thread and it was certainly not ignored. Just because it might get ignored does not mean you should not develop your arguments, if you wish to convince the undecided, which is really the thing you would want to achieve.

    It is also interesting you stated that democracy and sovereignty are 'playthings', given how many people fought and died in the last century to prevent us from losing these very 'playthings'. Again, not forcing anything down your throat, you stay you.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    We are circumstantially different to Norway saying 'no' decades ago, things have changed massively. It would not be identical for us. Do you think the EU gave a **** about Norway not joining? Probably not much of one, but Britain, being one of the biggest member states, leaving - this is things on a whole new level.
    The point here is that the tactics of fear, and lies used against Norway were exactly the same as they are using today.
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    (Original post by Rover73)
    The op is a fearmonger.

    Same thing happened to Norway, when said NO to the EU.

    They received a barrage of fearmongering and lies, the same lies we are being told, and they all proved to be completely false.
    LIES told to NORWAY before they rejected the EU.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c
    Norway is practically an EU member anyway without the CAP and CFP.

    http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Cooppera.../#.V2p6xbgrLIU

    http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/...the-eu-entail/

    Brexit are advocating leaving the EEA altogether which is crazy, our economy is 80% services and the EEA allows free movement of services.

    The whole Norway/Switzerland argument is absurd as it contradicts the main arguments for leaving.
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    don't pull out... stay in
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I've made my own thread and it was certainly not ignored. Just because it might get ignored does not mean you should not develop your arguments, if you wish to convince the undecided, which is really the thing you would want to achieve.

    It is also interesting you stated that democracy and sovereignty are 'playthings', given how many people fought and died in the last century to prevent us from losing these very 'playthings'. Again, not forcing anything down your throat, you stay you.
    Yes, because getting 5% more democracy by being able to elect the people who make laws is a negligible, irrelevant little thing compared to economic integrity. Same goes for sovereignty, when foreigners think of Britain they do not collectivise it amongst Europe, we already have sovreignty and leaving the EU for sovreignty is stupid. The people arguing for 'democracy' are really arguing for a tiny, negligible extension of democracy and ignoring the fact that leaving the EU has many more important side effects.
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    More of a threat than the people blowing themselves up and shooting people by the dozen?

    Gimme a break
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Yes, because getting 5% more democracy by being able to elect the people who make laws is a negligible, irrelevant little thing compared to economic integrity. Same goes for sovereignty, when foreigners think of Britain they do not collectivise it amongst Europe, we already have sovreignty and leaving the EU for sovreignty is stupid. The people arguing for 'democracy' are really arguing for a tiny, negligible extension of democracy and ignoring the fact that leaving the EU has many more important side effects.
    How do you come up with the '5% more democracy' figure?
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    How do you come up with the '5% more democracy' figure?
    I think the ability to vote for our people who make our laws compromises of about 5% of our democracy on a generous day, but thats not the point - the point is, its negligibly small and not valuable compared to economic integrity and international relations.
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    As Boris rightly said yesterday, the Remain campaign is just Project Fear. I'm not falling for your scaremongering, and judging by the polls, neither are the majority of the public. Oh, and several undecided friends of mine, young people like me, have all decided to vote Leave after yesterday's debate.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    More of a threat than the people blowing themselves up and shooting people by the dozen?

    Gimme a break
    They already did - the collapsing of the NHS.

    While terrorism is horrific and gets a lot of press, I promise you that many more people will die due to poor medical care than will die from terrorism attacks. The NHS treats millions of people a year, you don't even need 0.01% more to die before it has already outnumbered terrorist related deaths.

    I'd also note that pretty much every security expert in the world has suggested we will be more vulnerable to terrorism by leaving the EU, but I'm sure you knew that already and are just being willfully ignorant.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    They already did - the collapsing of the NHS.

    While terrorism is horrific and gets a lot of press, I promise you that many more people will die due to poor medical care than will die from terrorism attacks. The NHS treats millions of people a year, you don't even need 0.01% more to die before it has already outnumbered terrorist related deaths.

    I'd also note that pretty much every security expert in the world has suggested we will be more vulnerable to terrorism by leaving the EU, but I'm sure you knew that already and are just being willfully ignorant.

    People will die from heart attacks anyway, terrorists are an existential threat that agitates for political change. It is no doubt the bigger threat.
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    (Original post by JRKinder)
    Ironic how the leave campaign has branded Remain as 'project fear', yet they're the ones spreading the lies about Turkey 'imminently joining'; if this isn't scaremongering then I don't know what is. Turkey are NOT joining the EU and they NEVER WILL. They have been a candidate country for years and have made no progress at all towards becoming a member. They are highly authoritarian, anti-democratic and have a shakey human rights record. All of this will need to be overcome before they can even think of becoming EU members. Besides, I think we have a right to be scared of a gigantic economic downturn that will be caused by leaving.
    They will never join that is why the government state they are helping them join.
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/reunitin...ogramme-turkey
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    They already did - the collapsing of the NHS.

    While terrorism is horrific and gets a lot of press, I promise you that many more people will die due to poor medical care than will die from terrorism attacks. The NHS treats millions of people a year, you don't even need 0.01% more to die before it has already outnumbered terrorist related deaths.

    I'd also note that pretty much every security expert in the world has suggested we will be more vulnerable to terrorism by leaving the EU, but I'm sure you knew that already and are just being willfully ignorant.
    Agreed.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I think the ability to vote for our people who make our laws compromises of about 5% of our democracy on a generous day, but thats not the point - the point is, its negligibly small and not valuable compared to economic integrity and international relations.
    Then I must again say that this is another assumption from nowhere. I must also state that the ability to make our laws is a big part of democracy and sovereignty, it is nowhere near small, not in anyone's imagination but maybe except you.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    People will die from heart attacks anyway, terrorists are an existential threat that agitates for political change. It is no doubt the bigger threat.
    Will they? Plenty of people survive heart attacks and go on to live perfectly normal healthy lives. If you are happy to lower their chances of survival and dismiss it as "Oh well people die of heart attacks anyway" then I suggest you take a long look in the mirror and consider what your priorities really are.

    A handful of nutters shooting people at random is terrifying, and my heart goes out to anyone who has been/known a victim, but realistically they kill a very small number of people in the grand scheme of things when you're discussing a population of 500 million people.

    Incidentally I find it amusing you're against political change while voting leave...
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    (Original post by ATW1)
    As Boris rightly said yesterday, the Remain campaign is just Project Fear. I'm not falling for your scaremongering, and judging by the polls, neither are the majority of the public. Oh, and several undecided friends of mine, young people like me, have all decided to vote Leave after yesterday's debate.
    Project fear is justified if the threats are real. The remain camp purports generally justified threats. The Brexit camp makes up stupid threats like "Syria and Iraq are going to be joining the EU" by highlighting and naming those two countries in red on their leaflet, its disgusting.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Then I must again say that this is another assumption from nowhere. I must also state that the ability to make our laws is a big part of democracy and sovereignty, it is nowhere near small, not in anyone's imagination but maybe except you.
    Very few laws are made in Brussels, so yes, it is a tiny part of democracy.
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    As a long time Brexiter (I was arguing for it back in 2009 on these very TSR pages) I thought I would drop in.

    First thing that comes to mind viz Turkey and the Remain campaign is this: If uncontrolled immigration is such a good thing and we're all racists for opposing it and wanting Australian-style controlled immigration then why are Remainians hammering home how unlikely it is that Turkey will ever join rather than saying out-n-proud "I can't wait for Turkey to join and i'm praying that Cameron gets on it right away"

    May I hazard a guess why? Because the Remainers know that this stance is so toxic, such a third-rail issue, they daren't touch it with a barge pole. So to you Remainers I suggest this, to stand up for what you believe in (uncontrolled immigration) and tell the public what you really think, that we would all be better off if millions of randomers from Turkey could waltz in-n-out of the UK at will.

    Peace out
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Very few laws are made in Brussels, so yes, it is a tiny part of democracy.
    ...What are you talking about? That's what the EU Commission is for, the presenting of new legislation to the parliament... and between 15 and 50% of all new legislation introduced in Britain comes from... can you guess it? Yeah, the EU. So calling the EU a "tiny part of democracy" is completely silly.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    I just listed the first three.

    The others don't seem unreasonable either, given such a huge shift in the market is obviously doing to have an immediate dampening effect on the global economy (it already has to an extent in anticipation). It's no secret that Gove, Hunt and Boris want to scrap the NHS, they've written books on the topic.

    Whether other EU countries are likely to have referendums is ultimately down to how much of an "example" they make of us for leaving. This one I don't necessarily agree with.

    On the whole the majority of them seem very likely. I wouldn't call any of them certainties, as there are no certainties. If we could only discuss certainties there would be no debate what so every on the subject.
    Okay I'll list them out for ease of referencing.


    'Scotland will have a second referendum if they vote majorly to remain, and they will leave us with a comfortable independence vote. The UK will break up.'

    I think this is rather independent on the referendum. Nicola Sturgeon had already indicated the intention to have another referendum, and what is wrong with that? The wrong thing to do, is to suppress the will of the Scottish people by not allowing them to leave the UK if this is their will. Another wrong thing to do is to sacrifice the will of the English people to satisfy the Scottish.

    I understand that you may not like Scotland to leave the UK, or for the UK to leave the EU, however if it happens it is still their choice. It would be the most awful thing to suppress public sentiments and I hope you can respect that. In some way, the rise of the far-right can be attributed to governments suppressing the will of the people, resulting in public resentment and civil disorder.

    'The current Tory leaders will be replaced with even more right wing leaders, David Cameron and George Osbourne are pretty daft characters, but it could be so much worse.'

    Firstly there is no indication that the current leadership will be replaced by 'even more right wing leaders', only assumptions, if any. I think we should also consider our electoral procedures. Let's say that the 'more right wing leaders' are Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. For them to be elected they must challenge the party leadership and re-elected by the public. The public will be the ones who are responsible for ultimately putting them in power, and throw them out if needed. Again similar to my previous response, just because this isn't something you'd like to happen you have got to respect the majority's views.


    'There will probably be another general election within the next year, the majority of the Tory party will almost certainly flip to Boris Johnson's camp and rebel against David Cameron - and they will almost certainly win by a comfortable margin.'

    As above. I fully sympathise with your concerns but I hope you can appreciate our democracy and the checks and balances it provides if things go wrong.

    With regards to the NHS, I believe that the majority (including me) does not want a privatised NHS. It would be a suicidal policy for them to take. Being such a sensitive topic I am confident that the public will not allow them to privatise it openly or through the back door.
 
 
 
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