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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    Because it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully it'll shake up UK politics a little and galvanise the public into action - if we truly care about democracy we'll then be able to lobby for proportional representation / a fairer voting system.
    I think it's folly to put the cart before the horse. Do what you want in the UK now, and then 'take back control'. Because otherwise you're doing none of the sort.

    That's even if I agree with your premise, which I don't.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    I think it's folly to put the cart before the horse. Do what you want in the UK now, and then 'take back control'. Because otherwise you're doing none of the sort.

    That's even if I agree with your premise, which I don't.
    The referendum's today and I doubt we'll be allowed another one, so I'm afraid the UK reformation will have to come second.

    As for disagreeing, do you disagree that the UK has an unfair voting system?
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    The referendum's today and I doubt we'll be allowed another one, so I'm afraid the UK reformation will have to come second.
    And if you fail (especially as you'll be putting the system in the hands of the most right-wing Tories and UKIPers), we'll be in a worse position than ever.

    As for disagreeing, do you disagree that the UK has an unfair voting system?
    I do. But I also don't think that makes our Parliament ineffective or incapable of asserting the interests of the public. Nor do I think a more proportional system makes politicians more honest or likely to follow the public will.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    And if you fail (especially as you'll be putting the system in the hands of the most right-wing Tories and UKIPers), we'll be in a worse position than ever.

    I do. But I also don't think that makes our Parliament ineffective or incapable of asserting the interests of the public. Nor do I think a more proportional system makes politicians more honest or likely to follow the public will.
    Being anti-Europe has nothing to do with being right wing. Besides, we're not suddenly changing our government just because we voted to Leave (unless Cameron resigns and/or it sparks calls for another election).
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    Being anti-Europe has nothing to do with being right wing.
    I know. I never claimed otherwise.

    Besides, we're not suddenly changing our government just because we voted to Leave (unless Cameron resigns and/or it sparks calls for another election).
    That's precisely what is expected to happen.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    That's precisely what is expected to happen.
    It doesn't mean we're getting a right-wing government. From what I can gather there isn't a whole lot of support for the Tories and UKIP has too few MPs (as well as being widely disliked) to pose a serious challenge.
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    It doesn't mean we're getting a right-wing government. From what I can gather there isn't a whole lot of support for the Tories and UKIP has too few MPs (as well as being widely disliked) to pose a serious challenge.
    It really depends, but if Leave win, Cameron is definitely going.

    The Tories would be immensely split, but so will Labour, and it's extremely likely that the 'theme' of such a snap election will be about our future relationship with the EU. And that will be dominated by the Leavers - and it's undeniable that while there are left-wing Brexiters, the Leave campaign as a whole is dominated by the hard right.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    As I just said to another poster - if you have such lack of faith in UK politicians, what exactly is this referendum all about? If you think Westminster will let you down and betray you, why all the droning on about sovereignty and taking control?



    Completely and utterly irrelevant.
    The EU is often used as an excuse to pass reforms that couldn't pass. No British government could ever end the monarchy. But with the input of EU directives the excuse is right there.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    the Leave campaign as a whole is dominated by the hard right.
    I'd be interested to see a political breakdown of Leave vs Remain. There are plenty of uber-nationalist Brexiters, but I'm starting to wonder if that's being somewhat distorted by the media, since all they ever seem to want to talk about is how awful immigration is.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    The EU is often used as an excuse to pass reforms that couldn't pass.
    The EU is often blamed for unpopular measures that the UK Government wants anyway.

    No British government could ever end the monarchy. But with the input of EU directives the excuse is right there.
    What the hell are you talking about? There is zero power at the EU level do touch any part of the British constitution. Any proposal to extend the EU's powers in this way would be widely known and promptly vetoed.
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    I'd be interested to see a political breakdown of Leave vs Remain. There are plenty of uber-nationalist Brexiters, but I'm starting to wonder if that's being somewhat distorted by the media, since all they ever seem to want to talk about is how awful immigration is.
    That would be interesting, yes.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    The Queen has been challenging her inner circle to explain why Britain should stay in the European Union
    Those Germans and Greeks coming over here, taking our Royal heritage.
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    It doesn't mean we're getting a right-wing government. From what I can gather there isn't a whole lot of support for the Tories and UKIP has too few MPs (as well as being widely disliked) to pose a serious challenge.
    It likely won't be a general election, it'll be the Tories selecting a new leader and we get right-wing Boris instead of Cameron who is moderate by Tory standards.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    The EU will end the monarchy someday. The superstate won't tolerate a monarch.
    Considering there are eleven other monarchies in Europe, none of which appear to be in any danger, I don't see how this is necessarily true.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    The EU is often blamed for unpopular measures that the UK Government wants anyway.



    What the hell are you talking about? There is zero power at the EU level do touch any part of the British constitution. Any proposal to extend the EU's powers in this way would be widely known and promptly vetoed.
    the EU will get more and more powerful. Who knows what a future government would veto or not veto. I can imagine a Labour government not putting vetos and using the excuse to finally end the monarchy.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It likely won't be a general election, it'll be the Tories selecting a new leader and we get right-wing Boris instead of Cameron who is moderate by Tory standards.
    True. I really can't imagine Boris as the PM though... it doesn't mean he won't become PM, but he doesn't strike me as country-leader material.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    the EU will get more and more powerful. Who knows what a future government would veto or not veto. I can imagine a Labour government not putting vetos and using the excuse to finally end the monarchy.
    Such a delusional reality could happen outside the EU and has nothing to do with it. Put the tin hat away.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Such a delusional reality could happen outside the EU and has nothing to do with it. Put the tin hat away.
    No it can't because the politician would lose popularity. Using the EU excuse is always effective. For example Tsipras has approved hard reforms and people still support him because he blamed the EU. It works,same in France and Italy. They say 'it's the EU not us,we can't get out of the EU' and people accept it.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    No it can't because the politician would lose popularity. Using the EU excuse is always effective. For example Tsipras has approved hard reforms and people still support him because he blamed the EU. It works,same in France and Italy. They say 'it's the EU not us,we can't get out of the EU' and people accept it.
    There is no way such logic could be used to abolish the monarchy.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    There is no way such logic could be used to abolish the monarchy.
    are you sure? The Queen has only to lose with remaining in the EU. If Greek politicians made voters accept and support the sell of their loved isles the British ones could do it about the monarchy.
 
 
 
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