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The upper/working class alliance that swung Leave watch

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    :auto:_______________The European Union
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    The irony is that the Remainers are the ones talking about suspending democracy and ushering in a period of authoritarianism to overturn the referendum result as "they know best".

    Also, the people attacking Boris Johnson in the streets are acting like fascist blackshirts
    It's funny isn't it? I haven't and will not disclose which way I voted so I can act slightly impartially, and from what I've seen it's the Remain camp acting like the bigots, accusing Leave of voting because they are just stupid xenophobic racists, and such idiots shouldn't be allowed a vote anyway.

    Don't get me started on their social darwinist policies of trying to invalidate votes from the 65+ as being 'old people voting on something they don't have to live through'.
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    (Original post by Arkasia)
    It's funny isn't it? I haven't and will not disclose which way I voted so I can act slightly impartially, and from what I've seen it's the Remain camp acting like the bigots, accusing Leave of voting because they are just stupid xenophobic racists, and such idiots shouldn't be allowed a vote anyway.

    Don't get me started on their social darwinist policies of trying to invalidate votes from the 65+ as being 'old people voting on something they don't have to live through'.
    Yeah I personally found that extremely offensive. Old people know things precisely because they're old; they've been around and they can look at things in the round and with long-term perspective. Some of the comments along the lines of "Good, they'll be dead soon" I found genuinely quite upsetting. I only have one grandparent left, she's 84 now and I rate her judgment very highly. She lives in Australia, where I'm from, so we don't catch up as much anymore but she's been to London a few times since I moved here and we always catch up one-on-one by going out for lunch or dinner at a nice restaurant when I'm home in Sydney. We have a great time talking about history and politics and the family, and down a good bottle of wine and a half.

    I couldn't imagine speaking about her or her generation in that way. She and people of her generation have wisdom, and I try to spend as much time as I can with my grandmother to benefit from it. It seems like some Remainers have nothing but contempt for their elders.
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    Yeah I personally found that extremely offensive. Old people know things precisely because they're old; they've been around and they can look at things in the round and with long-term perspective. Some of the comments along the lines of "Good, they'll be dead soon" I found genuinely quite upsetting. I only have one grandparent left, she's 84 now and I rate her judgment very highly. She lives in Australia, where I'm from, so we don't catch up as much anymore but she's been to London a few times since I moved here and we always catch up one-on-one by going out for lunch or dinner at a nice restaurant when I'm home in Sydney. We have a great time talking about history and politics and the family, and down a good bottle of wine and a half.

    I couldn't imagine speaking about her or her generation in that way. She and people of her generation have wisdom, and I try to spend as much time as I can with my grandmother to benefit from it. It seems like some Remainers have nothing but contempt for their elders.
    I think that's what this whole issue with who should vote boils down to - respect. Fewer and fewer people respect adults, especially the elderly, and those whose ideals they hold in contempt. Most of the people I have seen on here and in real life who believe democracy should genuinely have voting restrictions fit into a small demographic - young, left-leaning, and unhappy with the result of whichever vote occurs.

    Yes, there are occasions where the opinions of the elderly should be taken with a pinch of salt - in a family discussion around the dinner table, for example. But in a democratic vote, they hold all the same rights as any other member of the population, and their right to self-governance should be respected.

    Fortunately this is something that appears to be limited to the young - a combination of deluded self-importance, over-estimation of one's intelligence, and misinterpretation of cynicism for wisdom means that social darwinism and amateur eugenics doesn't exist in great amounts past the age of 30.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Where do you think jobs come from? The EU wanted to create more jobs, you want to get rid of the competition.
    This is what I don't get. The EU does not directly provide jobs, they do not simply create positions for us in the UK, fund them, and say "there you go guys, here are some more jobs". The EU countries create jobs by providing a supply and demand situation, the individual countries within the EU buy our goods, and we buy theirs. We do not need to be in the EU to trade with EU countries, we don't need to (and certainly SHOULDN'T be forced to) live by their laws and regulations just to trade with them. Explain the democracy in an unelected Brussels dictatorship telling us if we want to trade with them we must do this and that.

    The EU do not supply jobs, the constituent countries supply jobs, as do the other 100odd countries we trade with outside the EU. All we need now are strong willed politicians to do what Mr Cameron could not, negotiate a good trade deal, with both EU countries and the rest of the world. If they get complete access to the EU free trade arrangement, then perfect we have lost very little through the process of gaining control of our borders and our laws, unlikely though, any shortfalls we can supplement with non-EU countries. The only thing we need to worry about is countries like Germany sending the other EU countries a message by being ridiculously firm on us, but that would involve cutting off their nose to spite their face, and if you believe the chatter in France, Italy and the Netherlands whose opposition parties are gaining support and are already calling for referendums themselves, any OT stance would likely strengthen their position.

    I've nothing against your other points, they ring true. I didn't want to leave the EU, but the EU did not listen to us, you can see how shocked they all are that we actually left, they sneered and thought we were just making a fuss, all the way up till last night. They did not take our issues seriously, and it is because of this that we have left, do not put this all on the British public, of the Leave campaigners, the blame must lie also with Brussels for their terrible handling of just and reasonable worries that we as a country had about the EU. They had a chance to send a message to the rest of the EU at that time, a message of cooperation, of listening to peoples concerns, but decided to go for the easier message of no one gets "special" treatment, you all do as we say, they went for deterrence over compassion. We have not isolated ourselves from the world, we have finally ripped the tape off our mouths that the EU put there, and have found our voice. Imagine hat would have happened had we got Camerons pathetic renegotiation, complained at how poor it was, then voted to stay in? They would know they could continue to ignore us and take advantage of us, and we would do nothing.
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    (Original post by Algren)
    This is what I don't get. The EU does not directly provide jobs, they do not simply create positions for us in the UK, fund them, and say "there you go guys, here are some more jobs". The EU countries create jobs by providing a supply and demand situation, the individual countries within the EU buy our goods, and we buy theirs. We do not need to be in the EU to trade with EU countries, we don't need to (and certainly SHOULDN'T be forced to) live by their laws and regulations just to trade with them. Explain the democracy in an unelected Brussels dictatorship telling us if we want to trade with them we must do this and that.
    How is that different from any trade deal? When you make a deal with someone, you agree to follow certain conditions. That's not a dictatorship. We'll still need to follow all of their product regulations and consumer protections to trade with them in future, we just won't get any say in making them (where previously we've made up 10% of EU Parliament).

    As for not needing to be in the EU - the single market was set up in a way to incentivise trade within the EU. It made us more appealing trading partners, and other countries less appealing.

    The EU do not supply jobs, the constituent countries supply jobs, as do the other 100odd countries we trade with outside the EU. All we need now are strong willed politicians to do what Mr Cameron could not, negotiate a good trade deal, with both EU countries and the rest of the world. If they get complete access to the EU free trade arrangement, then perfect we have lost very little through the process of gaining control of our borders and our laws, unlikely though, any shortfalls we can supplement with non-EU countries. The only thing we need to worry about is countries like Germany sending the other EU countries a message by being ridiculously firm on us, but that would involve cutting off their nose to spite their face, and if you believe the chatter in France, Italy and the Netherlands whose opposition parties are gaining support and are already calling for referendums themselves, any OT stance would likely strengthen their position.
    The EU have every reason to make an example out of us, and it would be completely fair for them to do it - after months of calling them Nazis and then giving 2 fingers to 40 years of hard work, we deserve everything we've got coming to us. Every country that's ever gotten a free trade deal with the EU has had to abide by all the conditions we're leaving to get rid of - free movement, contributing to the budget, etc.

    I expect that once we start seeing the consequences of leaving, it'll end this uprising of the far right. Lots of people seem to already regret their decision now that they're actually faced with reality.

    I've nothing against your other points, they ring true. I didn't want to leave the EU, but the EU did not listen to us, you can see how shocked they all are that we actually left, they sneered and thought we were just making a fuss, all the way up till last night. They did not take our issues seriously, and it is because of this that we have left, do not put this all on the British public, of the Leave campaigners, the blame must lie also with Brussels for their terrible handling of just and reasonable worries that we as a country had about the EU. They had a chance to send a message to the rest of the EU at that time, a message of cooperation, of listening to peoples concerns, but decided to go for the easier message of no one gets "special" treatment, you all do as we say, they went for deterrence over compassion. We have not isolated ourselves from the world, we have finally ripped the tape off our mouths that the EU put there, and have found our voice. Imagine hat would have happened had we got Camerons pathetic renegotiation, complained at how poor it was, then voted to stay in? They would know they could continue to ignore us and take advantage of us, and we would do nothing.
    The EU has bent over backwards for us since it was created. We've always had special treatment. We're not part of Schengen, for example. It's not that they didn't take our issues seriously, it's that they'd had enough of us expecting the EU to exist solely for our own benefit.

    We could've found our voice by voting for our MEPs. We controlled 10% of EU Parliament, and yet barely anyone turned out to vote MEPs, and many of them made stupid "protest votes", voting in people like Nigel Farage who got paid £80k/year to not actually turn up and vote in Parliament.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The EU has bent over backwards for us since it was created. We've always had special treatment. We're not part of Schengen, for example. It's not that they didn't take our issues seriously, it's that they'd had enough of us expecting the EU to exist solely for our own benefit.
    We're not just talking about us though. France, Italy, the Netherlands, all are facing similar referendum calls to us, many countries are unhappy with the EU at present. The less economically developed countries have been added into the EU based on political reasons and not economical, thus the EU has suffered economically, and those more developed countries have suffered themselves. The opposition party's of all those countries are ahead in polls based on a promise of EU referendum. The EU should have considered a renegotiation with everyone, not just us, to iron out all issues every country had, instead they tried to set an example that no one is to question their ideals. The EU is not what it was, its structure has changed, yet its laws and regulations have not, creating disparity between them. You are seeing people like Juncker coming out now saying this Brexit means we need to consider reforms in EU and that EU is not working for everybody. Hello! That's exactly what we told you and you told us to stuff it. Ironically now that we have voted leave it seems they're open to reform because they realise people actually will leave. Go figure.
 
 
 
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