Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

David Lammy claims referendum was 'non binding' Watch

    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    There is no second referendum. But be strong. All the best. Have a good day, and good health.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=4186437
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    Well, he's correct. Parliament is supposed to do what's best for the people of Britain so I think overriding this referendum would be completely justified. I very much doubt they would be willing to suffer the consequences of that though.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Well, he's correct. Parliament is supposed to do what's best for the people of Britain so I think overriding this referendum would be completely justified. I very much doubt they would be willing to suffer the consequences of that though.
    No, parliament is meant to facilitate the debate and vote of the MPs. The MPs are supposed to do what their constituents wish. The constituents have clearly voiced what they want to happen and so those servants of the people need to obey.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    What part of electing MEPs to Parliament that then vote on laws is undemocratic?
    The part where the MEPs have, at best, ceremonial powers. The unelected European Commission have total authority over all legislative processes. MEPs can't even vote to repeal anything dictated to them from the commission.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Well, he's correct. Parliament is supposed to do what's best for the people of Britain so I think overriding this referendum would be completely justified. I very much doubt they would be willing to suffer the consequences of that though.
    That sounds borderline fascist, ngl :lolwut:
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by James David)
    the EU is a fundamentally undemocratic notion
    Referendum is over, you can stop now.
    For the record:
    You elect your MEPs => They vote on laws, and vote for appointment the commission and president.
    You elect your national MPs => They vote on laws and on PM => PM appoints ministers, who then makes up relevant EU council

    EU is more democratic than UK, which has first past the post system resulting in governments that 63% of people voted again, because they have PR system.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Reue)
    No, parliament is meant to facilitate the debate and vote of the MPs. The MPs are supposed to do what their constituents wish. The constituents have clearly voiced what they want to happen and so those servants of the people need to obey.
    No, they're representatives not delegates. There is a key difference: delegates are just mouthpieces for the public, whereas representatives take both constituent and national interest into account. Given the small margin of victory and immense technical knowledge that the vast majority of the public lack, them circumventing this result is arguably justified.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JRKinder)
    No, they're representatives not delegates. There is a key difference: delegates are just mouthpieces for the public, whereas representatives take both constituent and national interest into account. Given the small margin of victory and immense technical knowledge that the vast majority of the public lack, them circumventing this result is arguably justified.
    Their representative right on this decision ended when a referendum was called. It would be political suicide for any MP other than those in Scotland/NI/London to go against the majority of this I suspect.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Desi123)
    That sounds borderline fascist, ngl :lolwut:
    With all due respect, you might want to remind yourself of what fascism is. Supporting representative democracy over direct democracy is not fascism.

    (Original post by Reue)
    No, parliament is meant to facilitate the debate and vote of the MPs. The MPs are supposed to do what their constituents wish. The constituents have clearly voiced what they want to happen and so those servants of the people need to obey.
    The issue is that whilst a lot of people who voted Leave clearly wished for some of the things Leave offered them, a lot of those things were fabrications. I don't understand why we should recognise a referendum where a sizable proportion of the electorate was not in an informed position to have a say on the matter. This is why we have representative democracy, it is ridiculous to expect the entire electorate to have a properly informed opinion on the matter.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by welshiee)
    No he didn't. He said it would be unfinished business and that he would only give up if remain won by a large margin. At no point did he call for a second referendum. Look at the quotes, not the yellow journalism.
    Not giving up would mean not accepting the vote of the people. It is hypocritical to say that those who are continuing to fight to stay in the EU are undemocratic yet defend the man who said that he would continue to fight in order to leave even after the people had voted.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    The issue is that whilst a lot of people who voted Leave clearly wished for some of the things Leave offered them, a lot of those things were fabrications. I don't understand why we should recognise a referendum where a sizable proportion of the electorate was not in an informed position to have a say on the matter. This is why we have representative democracy, it is ridiculous to expect the entire electorate to have a properly informed opinion on the matter.
    What is ridiculous is assuming "a lot" of those who voted leave were uninformed or based their decisions purely upon fabrications. The same could equally be said of "a lot" of those who voted remain.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    What part of electing MEPs to Parliament that then vote on laws is undemocratic?
    5 EU presidents we don't get to vote for
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    With all due respect, you might want to remind yourself of what fascism is. Supporting representative democracy over direct democracy is not fascism..
    Nice phrasing there, and let's not beat around the bush pretending I don't know what fascism is. The referendum wasn't legally "binding", yes, but overriding the winning decision (made by everyone who bothered to vote, as is the same case in a GE) after it was made extremely clear to everyone that there would be no "second referendum" and this was a "once in a lifetime" decision is extremely authoritarian.

    Furthermore, in a representative democracy/following general elections, MPs are still meant to represent - that is why we vote for them. You're automatically assuming that they would be still doing so if they overrode this decision. That is extremely questionable. Lots of MPs were pro Leave anyway, btw.

    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Thoughts?
    I can only laugh at Lammy
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Reue)
    What is ridiculous is assuming "a lot" of those who voted leave were uninformed or based their decisions purely upon fabrications. The same could equally be said of "a lot" of those who voted remain.
    Given that the overwhelming majority of experts in practically every aspect of society supported remaining in the EU, as well as practically every other stable, western country in the world, I think there's quite a good argument to support the case that people voting Leave did not care about what experts thought. I believe that there are some people who voted for Leave who did make an effort to inform themselves about the issue and have decided that this is the best thing for the UK in spite of all of the evidence for the contrary which I can accept to some extent, but this is definitely not the case for most of them. Listening to many people who voted Leave, you hear things that fall into one of a few categories: (1) things that won't change by leaving the EU, (2) things that have nothing to do with the EU, (3) ridiculous arguments about sovereignty that seem to forget that the British Empire doesn't any more, and never will, exist and (4) making a protest-vote against the establishment, not actually thinking that Leave is going to win.

    And of course, I totally accept that there are plenty of people who voted Remain who don't know what they're talking about either. This is why the public should never have been given the vote for this.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Desi123)
    Nice phrasing there, and let's not beat around the bush pretending I don't know what fascism is. The referendum wasn't legally "binding", yes, but overriding the winning decision (made by everyone who bothered to vote, as is the same case in a GE) after it was made extremely clear to everyone that there would be no "second referendum" and this was a "once in a lifetime" decision is extremely authoritarian.

    Furthermore, in a representative democracy/following general elections, MPs are still meant to represent - that is why we vote for them. You're automatically assuming that they would be still doing so if they overrode this decision. That is extremely questionable.

    I said nothing that was remotely fascist. Democracy is a wonderful thing, but the reason why we have representative democracy is because of the understanding that there are many issues that are simply too complicated to expect the majority of the electorate to inform themselves properly about. It has been shown time and time again that many of the people voting in this referendum were either uninformed and/or assuming things that were blatantly incorrect. I can't understand why you think that a decision made on that basis is valid. You wouldn't ask the public to vote on equally complex decisions like the distribution of research funding or which foreign aid projects to support so I don't understand why it's suddenly completely acceptable for the public to have a direct vote on this.

    We are going to leave the the EU, there's nothing that I can do about it. The people who have voted Leave have almost certainly got their way, it's not as if anything I'm saying is changing anything. But I can only repeat that the overwhelming expert consensus is that leaving the EU is an awful decision, which is why I view this result as outrageous. Just because a slim majority of voters voted for something does not make it right. The truth doesn't change if people collectively decide to ignore it.

    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Would you be agreeing if it had been a 52-48 vote to remain?
    As I've already said, I disagree with this referendum happening in the first place. Practically everybody who was in a position to make informed recommendations about decisions that are good for the UK's well being strongly supported remaining in the European Union so that is what should have happened.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    This is why the public should never have been given the vote for this.
    Given that the government would have kept us in the EU, I think this referendum shows exactly why public must have been given the vote for this.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Desi123)
    That sounds borderline fascist, ngl :lolwut:
    Borderline fascist? It's how our government works. Did you get to vote on the Investigatory Powers Bill? Psychoactive Substances Act? Iraq war? Tax cuts for the rich?

    We vote for politicians that make decisions, because when we don't we end up doing stupid **** like leaving the EU.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WBZ144)
    Yes, and the Leave side loves democracy! That's why Nigel Farage asked for a second referendum if Remain won by a slim margin.
    Nigel Farage was not the only leader of the Leave campaign, just like David Cameron did not represent all the Remain campaign.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Reue)
    Given that the government would have kept us in the EU, I think this referendum shows exactly why public must have been given the vote for this.
    And the public has now got their way, despite all attempts to save them from themselves. The leading Leave politicians are now in shock because they have no idea what to do next, and are already starting to admit the many lies they have told the public over the past few months.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: June 26, 2016
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Has a teacher ever helped you cheat?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.