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POLL: What is your view of Jaysh Al Fatah (a terrorist group in Syria)? Watch

  • View Poll Results: What should we do about Jaysh Al Fatah?
    Ask Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey to stop sponsoring them
    5
    19.23%
    Designate the group as terrorist, and help efforts fighting it
    8
    30.77%
    Allow our Gulf allies to support them, Assad is worse
    1
    3.85%
    Consider them a terrorist group, but do nothing
    7
    26.92%
    Consider them a 'moderate' rebel group
    5
    19.23%

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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    You are trying to demonise all the sunni rebel groups in Syria. It's quite obvious. They work together so what? They layed their differences aside and fight together against the more evil foes .
    How can one consider it demonizing - and i will give you the example of Jaysh Al Islam, who operate in the Damuscus Suburbs. Jaysh al Islam are not part of Jaysh Al Fatah. They worked closely with al nusra. Yes, this is yet another radical group.

    Their ex-leader (zahran Alloush) , killed i believe by a russian air-strike, did the following:

    Here is a video of him, with subtitles, where he explicitly praises Sheikh Osama Bin Laden:
    Watch 2:15 onwards








    2. Here is a video of him pledging his alliance with Jabhat al Nusra, the Al-Qaeda affiliate in syria designated a terrorist group:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zajo2GeKyV4

    Here is a video of his millitia (Jaysh al Islam) parading women and men as Human Shields.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_R3Wmjl8e8
    3. And here is a video of him, calling for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of alawites, and shia muslims - turning the whole syria issue into a secterian one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPLUhSy4vZ4


    Ofcourse, a group like jaysh al islam and a man like him will totally open and pave the way for dialogue , democracy, and peace?
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    Tawheed let's be completely honest. You think low of Ayesha (ra), Umar (ra) and Abu Bakr (ra).
    You abusing me with the term 'rafidhi' and using highly volatile and secterian language is an awful thing.

    I believe, Rasullah s.a.w by command of Allah (azwj) designated Ali ibn abi Talib a.s to be his succesor. I believe, the mentioned names went against the prophet, and his command.

    That is my historical view, and historical opinion. You have a right to your own.



    You support the murderer of my people.
    Again, what do you mean by 'support the murder of my people'. I am against war, tyranny and oppression. But i'm sorry IdeasForLife, i consider Alqaeda as the greater evil here.



    I have credible reason to not think of you as a brother (mainly the degradation of 3 mentioned names).
    I have not degraded , abused, or insulted any of the mentioned names. I am on record on both sunni and shia forums preaching tolerance and moderation when it comes to discussing historical differences of opinion on mentioned personalities.

    Lol, you'll find having bad opinions on certain people is very looked down upon in Islam. Actually many scholars have said it takes you right out of Islam.
    Are you making Takfir on me? It would be upsetting. You converted to Islam, and here you are, calling other muslims as kaffirs.


    You have belittled or degraded them Tawheed. We've seen it on the Isoc. We've (me and others) have argued with you over it.
    I have had sunni users PM me and personally tell me they know i have not degraded anybody. I have had users who argued with me themselves apologize, make ammends, and make peace with me as their brother in Islam, some of the users you yourself have in mind. I have never insulted any of the symbols you revere.

    here we go again. Using the word rafidi(or similarly spelled versions) is sunni thing, it is not something AQ pulled out of thin air. Actually I'll shut up here, let's hear from Imam Ahmad.
    .
    I call you only by the name you prefer to be called. You're a sunni Muslim. I have fought hard against a tiny, tiny minority of yassir habib loving shia's who call sunni's 'bakri's', and warned them not to use hurtful and hateful language towards our brothers in the ahlus-sunnah.

    Like i said, i take my Sunnah from Muhammed and ale Muhammed asws.

    Insult me, make indirect takfir on me, i will never return your rudeness with rudeness.

    I will always, always open my doors for forgiveness, and reconciliation with you.
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    I think we've talked about how your copy and pastes really don't help? I think I've seen parts of this CP (copypaste) and probably answered this one on UF anyway so.
    You haven't addressed anything i have brought to the table.

    You have said i am demonizing groups, but have never shown me where i have spoken falsely about them?

    You have time, and breath here brother :

    1. Jabhat Al Nusra - have i lied they are an alqaeda affiliate ?
    2. Ahrar Asham, have i lied they were formed by members of alqaeda, worked closely with ISIS at one point, and work closely with al nusra ?
    3. Jaysh al Islam - have i lied that they put women into cages, their ex leader zahran alloush praised Osama Bin Laden, and regarded Alqaeda affiliate al nusra to be his brothers ?


    When you say, i support the killer of your people, are your people al nusra, ahrar, jaysh etc ?
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    If Al Qaeda was shia, you wouldn't post condemnations. The only reason you do is because they are sunni and they don't like you in Syria for the atrocities your people have committed. You're just backing your own dog (Iran) for the win. You don't care if people (well certainly not sunni people) die.
    Again, here you are, insulting me for attacking Alqaeda. I have told you already, i do not class Alqaeda as a sunni group in my own eyes. I have sunni family members, and i know many, many sunni's who deplore Alqaeda. To condemn Alqaeda is not akin to condemning sunni islam. It is rather, a bigger insult that you are associating alqaeda and sunni Islam so closely.

    The whole point of my condemnation of Alqaeda is they are the long-term greater evil. If Alqaeda took charge, do you think, having them in charge of swathes of land, more weapons, would lead to peace and democracy in Syria?

    Are we seriously talking about Alqaeda here?


    Check your past ISOC posts. I'm sure we've argued over this a few times.
    You have not addressed any of my arguments. The only thing that you have done is adhominem attacks against me, indirect takfirs [or direct takfirs actually].

    Your point of view would be far more convincing if you dissected my post, and argued against what i have written in the OP of the thread.

    Same with chemical attack post.
    You are willing to believe, the syrian arab army [assads], would launch a devastating chemical weapons attack in eastern goutha, on the very same day they, themselves [meaning assad] requested for UN inspectors to come to syria to investigate use of chemical weapons attack by syrian rebels ?

    Did you also not read the MIT report i sent to you, by prof.s from MIT, an american university, not an iranian one. Non-muslim writers and authors, not Iranian ones.


    No I am faulting you for being a deplorable person who is the living embodiment of the Iranian propaganda machine and therefore doesn't ever speak a word about the evil of murderers like Khameini (because they're from your sect). But you all the free time in the world to constantly post about Syrian rebel groups.
    I have time and time again criticized assad, on here, and on shia forums. But i certiantly don't buy all the propaganda i hear. I think you need to stop using the word 'syrian rebel group', and call a spade a spade.

    They are Alqaeda, or alqaeda associates, or alqaeda cooperating groups.

    There is no unity on fundamental differences which take people in and out of Islam. So for example none with the people who curse the sahaba.
    Show me one instance where i have done so ?

    And , secondly, you're more than willing to accept unity with Alqaeda, aren't you?
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    x.
    Please note, this thread is about Jaysh Al Fatah. I have shown patience with you by allowing you to derail it a little.

    You have the chance here to defend yourself:

    You have said i am demonizing groups, but have never shown me where i have spoken falsely about them?

    You have time, and breath here brother :

    1. Jabhat Al Nusra - have i lied they are an alqaeda affiliate ?
    2. Ahrar Asham, have i lied they were formed by members of alqaeda, worked closely with ISIS at one point, and work closely with al nusra ?
    3. Jaysh al Islam - have i lied that they put women into cages, their ex leader zahran alloush praised Osama Bin Laden, and regarded Alqaeda affiliate al nusra to be his brothers ?


    Thoughts on these?
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    My people, they are the people who acknowledge the Rashidun, they acknowledge the Prophet (pbuh) as the last messenger and their lord is Allah. AKA Sunnis.
    I have sunni family members, whom i love. And so, i have absolutely no qualms at all with sunni's. I am on record for striving for shia-sunni unity.
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    You're good. I like the last line especially. Makes me look like a right Al Qaeda sympathiser. You are a propaganda king.

    .
    If we examine our conversation, and have Allah (azwj) as our witness, you will find i have barely insulted you, barely thrown adhominems, barely thrown abuse.

    And, to an outsider, it would seem like you are sympathizing with Alqaeda here.

    You've only spent the past hour accusing me of demonizing them, praised alqaeda and other rebel groups for uniting together against a common enemy, called them sunni's - just bad ones, and accepted unity with them, but considered unity with me on TSR as out of the questionn, and have not once addressed the OP, or dissociated from Jaysh Al Fatah.
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    x.
    You have said i am demonizing groups, but have never shown me where i have spoken falsely about them?

    You have time, and breath here brother :

    1. Jabhat Al Nusra - have i lied they are an alqaeda affiliate ?
    2. Ahrar Asham, have i lied they were formed by members of alqaeda, worked closely with ISIS at one point, and work closely with al nusra ?
    3. Jaysh al Islam - have i lied that they put women into cages, their ex leader zahran alloush praised Osama Bin Laden, and regarded Alqaeda affiliate al nusra to be his brothers ?
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    (Original post by Arevaci)
    x
    I don't curse, nor is this thread intended to discuss this issue. You are derailing it.

    My assesment so far (people can read your posts themselves):

    1. You have attacked me for attacking Alqaeda, alqaeda associated/affiliated groups. [ and claimed i am attacking sunni's by demonizing alqaeda].
    2. Praised groups who have merged with Alqaeda or united with them under one name to fight a common enemy.
    3. Stated you want absolutely no unity with me (even over TSR), called me an abusive name (Rafidha), but have whleheartedly praised rebel groups working hand in hand and uniting with Alqaeda.
    4. Completely ignored the topic of this thread, and instead, have moved with full force to try to bring in secterian rifts.
    5. Have not addressed any of my questions - please note, that is the purpose of the thread, and you have evaded it and derailed it with an issue not at all related to this thread.
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    Who is Arevaci?
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    They're bad an' all.. But who's reporting on the important of Brexit?!
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    x
    Indeed, it is a great shame when people ignore the great command of God to maintain unity between fellow Muslims.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    Indeed, it is a great shame when people ignore the great command of God to maintain unity between fellow Muslims.
    Respectfully, ikhtilaaf on the fundamentals of aqeedah means we can never truly unify, since we can only unify on haq, but perceptions of what the haq is differs greatly. The commonality between Sunni and Shia is only marginally more than Muslims with Jews or Christians, and we do not unify with the latter two. Sunnis can hardly unite let alone inter-sect.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Respectfully, ikhtilaaf on the fundamentals of aqeedah means we can never truly unify, since we can only unify on haq, but perceptions of what the haq is differs greatly. The commonality between Sunni and Shia is only marginally more than Muslims with Jews or Christians, and we do not unify with the latter two. Sunnis can hardly unite let alone inter-sect.
    Please elaborate on these differences on the fundamentals "aqeedah"?

    In my humble opinion, such a mindset is destructive, as it essentially is saying ' we will unite only with those who believe exactly what we believe'.

    To my knowledge, perception of the truth doesn't differ as much as your emphasizing it to be...

    With regards to the last sentence, then this is a great misfortune and must be worked on.

    And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers...3:103
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Respectfully, ikhtilaaf on the fundamentals of aqeedah means we can never truly unify, since we can only unify on haq, but perceptions of what the haq is differs greatly. The commonality between Sunni and Shia is only marginally more than Muslims with Jews or Christians, and we do not unify with the latter two. Sunnis can hardly unite let alone inter-sect.
    (Original post by mil88)
    x
    When i talk about shia sunni unity, i do not mean uniting and abandoning aqeedah, or compromising belief systems. Rather, what i mean is unity on the basis of uniting in what is common, having love, tolerance, and respect for one another, and harbouring good relations with each other.

    Even the Messenger of Allah, Muhammed s.a.w sought unity with christians on the first shahadah - and we muslims also have the second shahadah!

    Noble Quran: "(Muhammad), say to the People of the Book, "We must come to a common term. Let us worship no one except God, nor consider anything equal to Him, nor regard any of us as our Lord besides God." However, if they turn away from (the Truth), tell them, "Bear witness that we have submitted ourselves to the will of God."
    While there are differences among shia's and sunni's, to claim shia's and sunni's have only marginally more in common than sunni's do with jews, i feel , is not a correct statement:

    1. Shia's and Sunni's both believe not only is there no God but Allah , but Muhammed (s.a.w) is his messenger. Jews do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammed (s.a.w).

    2. Shia's and sunni's both believe that the Quran is the unchanged, unaltered word of God. We share the same Holy Book, such can never be said about Sunni's and Jews. The bible indeed, paints the Prophets of Allah (azwj) in a terrible right, the differences between the Quran and the Bible are so great.

    3. Sunni's and shia's aren't Quranists either. They both accept on the need to follow the Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w, and both accept on the finality of prophethood.

    4. Sunni's and shia's both pray five prayers a day, both fast during Ramadhan.

    5. Think about all the fiqh issues we have in common? - From the Hijab, tahara rules, codes of dressing, codes of eating, codes of sleeping, etc


    I could go on and on. You would be right in claiming there are fundamental differences between shia's and sunni's. but we have a considerable amount in common that we can unite upon.


    I also think this thread , with respect about jaysh al fatah, has been derailed by IdeasforLife, who sadly, over the years, has become increasingly secterian, and i have had the pain to watch that transformation.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    Please elaborate on these differences on the fundamentals "aqeedah"?

    In my humble opinion, such a mindset is destructive, as it essentially is saying ' we will unite only with those who believe exactly what we believe'.

    To my knowledge, perception of the truth doesn't differ as much as your emphasizing it to be...

    With regards to the last sentence, then this is a great misfortune and must be worked on.

    And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers...3:103
    - Rejection of the first 3 caliphates, believing that 3 of the best Muslims were apostates, as well as anyone who did not support Ali (RA) and supported these 3 caliphs being sinners/untrustworthy/apostates. Sunsequently we take our deen from different people.
    - Belief in 12 imams. The attributes of these imams and how they are they are treated by Shia (although this will vary within Shi'isn from group to group, with some being less extreme and others being extreme and committing shirk). Rejection of these imams is kufr technically.

    We can find a common word with Muslims and then guide them on the finer points until an equilibrium is reached where everyone believes near enough the same stuff, and that is how Muslims unite; the differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism are too great to advise and guide one another.

    How is there not a large amount of differences? Different madhabs have differences of opinion on small things, and the founders of the Sunni madhabs had the same aqeedah; differences of opinion with Shia occur almost everywhere - big and small things.

    The Muslims hold onto the rope of Allah by believing in and following the haq, and that is what the Muslima united on and they all had the same beliefs; our beliefs are very different.

    Muslims gain from uniting because then they can implement and spread the haq better; unity between Sunni and Shia is not unity on the haq and we both have little to gain by uniting. Only Shia stand to gain through finally having a bit if acceptance given their historical ostracism from the rest of the Ummah and thus allowing them a platform to circulate their beliefs (which we fundamentally reject) unhindered; military and economic co-operation against the other enemies of Islam is perhaps a bonus, but again unity between Sunnis is an impossible task to achieve let alone with Shia.
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    Ah Islamic sectarianism. Makes Northern Ireland's lot seem sane and rational....
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    When i talk about shia sunni unity, i do not mean uniting and abandoning aqeedah, or compromising belief systems. Rather, what i mean is unity on the basis of uniting in what is common, having love, tolerance, and respect for one another, and harbouring good relations with each other.

    Even the Messenger of Allah, Muhammed s.a.w sought unity with christians on the first shahadah - and we muslims also have the second shahadah!

    Noble Quran: "(Muhammad), say to the People of the Book, "We must come to a common term. Let us worship no one except God, nor consider anything equal to Him, nor regard any of us as our Lord besides God." However, if they turn away from (the Truth), tell them, "Bear witness that we have submitted ourselves to the will of God."
    While there are differences among shia's and sunni's, to claim shia's and sunni's have only marginally more in common than sunni's do with jews, i feel , is not a correct statement:

    1. Shia's and Sunni's both believe not only is there no God but Allah , but Muhammed (s.a.w) is his messenger. Jews do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammed (s.a.w).

    2. Shia's and sunni's both believe that the Quran is the unchanged, unaltered word of God. We share the same Holy Book, such can never be said about Sunni's and Jews. The bible indeed, paints the Prophets of Allah (azwj) in a terrible right, the differences between the Quran and the Bible are so great.

    3. Sunni's and shia's aren't Quranists either. They both accept on the need to follow the Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w, and both accept on the finality of prophethood.

    4. Sunni's and shia's both pray five prayers a day, both fast during Ramadhan.

    5. Think about all the fiqh issues we have in common? - From the Hijab, tahara rules, codes of dressing, codes of eating, codes of sleeping, etc


    I could go on and on. You would be right in claiming there are fundamental differences between shia's and sunni's. but we have a considerable amount in common that we can unite upon.


    I also think this thread , with respect about jaysh al fatah, has been derailed by IdeasforLife, who sadly, over the years, has become increasingly secterian, and i have had the pain to watch that transformation.
    I do accept that we should talk to each other with manners and refrain from antagonising each other when possible, so respectfully that is possible; I guess my main contention was what 'unity' actually means, so I have been makibg my points on this basis.

    On the other hand, I would understand why sometimes Muslims on both sides might not look favourably upon the other due to supporting opposite sides in political conficts with religious undertones, or when there are beliefs that each group respectively has which evoke emotions e.g. view of some Sahabah, or Shia might be distressed by Sunnis praising some figures etc. I know you will say we should avoid fighting over where these differences occur, but my point is that others don't look kindly on this - I would imagine their mindset is like 'why should I be kind to someone who believes something so bad'... I do hope basic adhab is respected either way, but I imagine this complicated issue will be an ungoing problem until Yawm Al Qiyyamah sadly
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    - Rejection of the first 3 caliphates, believing that 3 of the best Muslims were apostates, as well as anyone who did not support Ali (RA) and supported these 3 caliphs being sinners/untrustworthy/apostates. Sunsequently we take our deen from different people.
    - Belief in 12 imams. The attributes of these imams and how they are they are treated by Shia (although this will vary within Shi'isn from group to group, with some being less extreme and others being extreme and committing shirk). Rejection of these imams is kufr technically.

    We can find a common word with Muslims and then guide them on the finer points until an equilibrium is reached where everyone believes near enough the same stuff, and that is how Muslims unite; the differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism are too great to advise and guide one another.

    How is there not a large amount of differences? Different madhabs have differences of opinion on small things, and the founders of the Sunni madhabs had the same aqeedah; differences of opinion with Shia occur almost everywhere - big and small things.

    The Muslims hold onto the rope of Allah by believing in and following the haq, and that is what the Muslima united on and they all had the same beliefs; our beliefs are very different.

    Muslims gain from uniting because then they can implement and spread the haq better; unity between Sunni and Shia is not unity on the haq and we both have little to gain by uniting. Only Shia stand to gain through finally having a bit if acceptance given their historical ostracism from the rest of the Ummah and thus allowing them a platform to circulate their beliefs (which we fundamentally reject) unhindered; military and economic co-operation against the other enemies of Islam is perhaps a bonus, but again unity between Sunnis is an impossible task to achieve let alone with Shia.
    Never have I said, nor do I or anyone that I know believe, that the first 3 were apostates...

    In fact, I disagree with the notion that we take our religion from different people. The religion of Islam as perfected before the Prophet died, so we take our religion from the Prophet and the Quran. Within obeying the Prophet, both sects have authentic hadiths to follow the Quran and Ahlulbayt.

    In fact, sunnis do have hadiths from Muslim and Bukhari that there will be 12 kholafa after the Prophet.

    Your statement of rejecting imams as being kufr, is incorrect. The mainstream belief is that the 12 successors of the Prophet are pure as per hadiths and Quranic verses

    I would beg to differ when you say 'They had same beliefs'. There are instances when the Muslims differed, even in the Prophet's time. Are you saying that this specific verse was only applicable in the Prophet's time, and not now?

    Unity isn't just about spreading the truth as you keep on saying. It's also about living peacefully together. When there's unity, radical opinions die off, without unity such radical opinions are always going to be present, leading to oppression, and inevitable harm.

    Shia gain as they get acceptance? What are on about? Obeying the command of God is much more significant than being "accepted". Also, you fundamentally reject people practicing their beliefs, or spreading their beliefs? Such an infrastructure is perfect for indoctrination. I'm not sure whether all Sunnis would agree with this.

    At least I can confirm that some Sunnis don't follow such views.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
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    (Original post by mil88)
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    Not the time and place for a debate brothers.

    I ask you both sincerely to use the 'ask any question about shia islam thread' i made for this.

    The topic of the OP is not a shia-sunni one, it's a political one.
 
 
 
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