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    (Original post by anonwinner)
    Unlike many young lefties such as yourself, I don't see working class or old people as inferior or stupid.

    We live in a democracy and everyone's vote is equal.
    That's the major problem. In an ideal democracy, the least educated people, school drop-outs, racists, homophobes, xenophobes, economically illiterate persons get the same amount of power as experts and professionals. Do you not see the problem in that? Democracy clearly is not without its flaws.

    I am politically and economically right-wing.
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    (Original post by pecora)
    That's the major problem. In an ideal democracy, the least educated people, school drop-outs, racists, homophobes, xenophobes, economically illiterate persons get the same amount of power as experts and professionals. Do you not see the problem in that? Democracy clearly is not without its flaws.

    I am politically and economically right-wing.
    So you're saying "only people with the same views as me should be allowed to vote."

    That's not how democracy works.
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    (Original post by anonwinner)
    So you're saying "only people with the same views as me should be allowed to vote."

    That's not how democracy works.
    Democracy does not always work to begin with.

    Secondly, of course not, but I would rather trust the experts and not the populists make the big decisions. How come has the Leave campaign been busted in the past week? Nigel Farage himself now says he "of course cannot guarantee" that 350 million going to the EU will instead fund the NHS, also, even the 350 is a lie.

    Even if we prioritise democracy over anything, this referendum was not about democracy, free choice and clear mind. It was pure populism — the Leave campaigners exploited people's emotions, fed them with absolute lies, thus people were not even aware of the facts. IMO, democracy also means fairness and clarity — is there any of it here?

    Anyway, you and I clearly have very different opinions and that is okay. Time will tell.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    It now costs about 10% more to study in the EU and this is rising daily thanks to the falling pound.

    We now have rising EU tuition fees, accommodation prices, food prices all rising for UK students wishing to study in the EU and its getting worse.
    The real shocker is that students have to pay at all for education, as a concept, that is utterly immoral, but like Huxley said, you reach a situation where kids are so indoctrinated that they just accept their slavery and servitude like a pair of old slippers. As a Leaver, I would fight your cause tooth and nail to end this system of payments and grants for students but I guess young Remainers wouldn't deem that worthy.

    Sadly since so many £millions and £millions have had to be given to the EU for so long the UK has not been able to subsidise education. That and all the money the UK has had to contribute for the bailouts of Greece, Portugal and all the others as a result of the EU's persistent push of the Euro as the all domineering currency despite the fact that all the evidence shows it to be useless as a one-size fits all countries monetary unit.
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    (Original post by pecora)
    Are you joking? This amazingness and flawlessness "democracy", AKA populism gave us Hitler (the bad guy), Reagan (the guy who exclusively favoured the rich in America) and is about to give us Drumpf.

    I do not believe that you would prioritise "democracy" over what you actually want to do in life. Do you honestly believe that what the majority wants is always the better option, even if that means you have to give up your innocent and personal dreams and ambitions that don't even affect others?
    It gave us Hitler did it? That's interesting 'cos in our depth study in our history course... focusing on the failures of the Weimar government and the way the Nazis manipulated it to their (primarily Hitler's) advantage and abused the system. Oddly enough there was no majority vote to put Hitler in power, his party were not even a politically influential party. He got into presidency through an under hand 'political deal' and gain his title of Fuhrer by abusing the power of his role as president. No one willingly voted for Hitler as Chancellor, Fuhrer or president. To blame democracy for that would be to display one's ignorance of any political understanding of Germany.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    In fairness, given the demographic of Leave voters, I don't think any of them had any interest in studying in the EU so I don't think they're overwhelmingly upset by this.
    Which particular demographic is that? There were leave voters across all age groups. If you're on about the older demographic well no **** but I doubt those voting remain in the same demographic are looking forward to studying International Politics in Helsinki either.

    Also, as you said 'any' which means 'zero' I can prove you wrong. I have both studied in the UK and Europe, I am currently working in mainland Europe and I still voted to leave because the issue is bigger than my personal circumstance.

    Finally, given your continuous petty jibes, I doubt many remain voters were planning on studying in Europe either. I doubt they'd be able to cope without mummy and daddy looking after them for so long.

    (Original post by Drewski)
    Exchange rates change all the time - both ways. Non story.
    Stop talking rubbish. Brexit ruined everything and we're all heading for the eternal hellfire.
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    (Original post by BobSausage)
    It gave us Hitler did it? That's interesting 'cos in our depth study in our history course... focusing on the failures of the Weimar government and the way the Nazis manipulated it to their (primarily Hitler's) advantage and abused the system. Oddly enough there was no majority vote to put Hitler in power, his party were not even a politically influential party. He got into presidency through an under hand 'political deal' and gain his title of Fuhrer by abusing the power of his role as president. No one willingly voted for Hitler as Chancellor, Fuhrer or president. To blame democracy for that would be to display one's ignorance of any political understanding of Germany.
    I studied Germany and in Germany.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...on,_March_1933

    33% is the majority. It doesn't matter how and what happened after (because those actions were made by the elected leaders, so those actions per se are technically justified!), it clearly showed that the majority of the public sympathised with Hitler. Yay democracy.
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    Is there a lot of funding for UK students to study in the EU? One of my friends wanted to go to university in France last year (& got accepted), yet in the end couldn't go because the French didn't give him any funding (as he was British) and Britain didn't give him any funding (because he was choosing to study in France rather than here). I know this isn't representative of everyone, but is this increase really a big problem?
    The beauty here is that we have ample time to pay back our student loans (and some don't even end up paying them back), whereas I feel it's those with more money that have the freedom to study abroad. So to rephrase, is this increase really a big problem for students from working/middle class families? (Which happens to form the majority of voters).




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    (Original post by welshiee)
    Which particular demographic is that? There were leave voters across all age groups. If you're on about the older demographic well no **** but I doubt those voting remain in the same demographic are looking forward to studying International Politics in Helsinki either.

    Also, as you said 'any' which means 'zero' I can prove you wrong. I have both studied in the UK and Europe, I am currently working in mainland Europe and I still voted to leave because the issue is bigger than my personal circumstance.

    Finally, given your continuous petty jibes, I doubt many remain voters were planning on studying in Europe either. I doubt they'd be able to cope without mummy and daddy looking after them for so long.
    As you very well know, Leave votes were heavily skewed towards older people. The existence of young Leave voters doesn't change the fact that the majority of people who were in the position to realistically intend to study in Europe voted stay. There is nothing in the slightest bit controversial about this and the existence of people who have studied outside of the UK and voted Leave doesn't change this.

    I don't see why you expect me to respond anyway though given that you can't even be bothered to think of a response for responses I give you that you don't like.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Makes our univerities more competitive.
    Compared with free or very cheap in many EU countries?

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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    As you very well know, Leave votes were heavily skewed towards older people. The existence of young Leave voters doesn't change the fact that the majority of people who were in the position to realistically intend to study in Europe voted stay. There is nothing in the slightest bit controversial about this and the existence of people who have studied outside of the UK and voted Leave doesn't change this.

    I don't see why you expect me to respond anyway though given that you can't even be bothered to think of a response for responses I give you that you don't like.
    a) I don't think you understand quantifiers as you said 'any' and I quite clearly proved you wrong on this - you're quite clearly not as clever as you profess

    b) Do you think older remain voters are going to be lapping up the opportunity to study in Europe? Of course not. Its a dumb argument. More older people voted remain than younger people voted remain in terms of actual numbers.

    The only people who are to blame for the outcome are the younger generation who were too lazy to vote. Stop blaming an older generation for the fecklessness of our current lazy and moronic one
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    a) I don't think you understand quantifiers as you said 'any' and I quite clearly proved you wrong on this - you're quite clearly not as clever as you profess

    b) Do you think older remain voters are going to be lapping up the opportunity to study in Europe? Of course not. Its a dumb argument. More older people voted remain than younger people voted remain in terms of actual numbers.

    The only people who are to blame for the outcome are the younger generation who were too lazy to vote. Stop blaming an older generation for the fecklessness of our current lazy and moronic one
    So your response is one of pedantry because of your tiny, noble community of young Leave voters who intend to study in Europe? Wonderful. And your second point is irrelevant to what I was talking about. And I am still waiting for a response to our earlier discussion and I'm assuming I'm not going to get one on account of the fact that your attitude condenses down to "I only listen to experts when they confirm what I already believed".
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    So your response is one of pedantry because of your tiny, noble community of young Leave voters who intend to study in Europe? Wonderful. And your second point is irrelevant to what I was talking about. And I am still waiting for a response to our earlier discussion and I'm assuming I'm not going to get one on account of the fact that your attitude condenses down to "I only listen to experts when they confirm what I already believed".
    No. I listen to experts when they actually come to solid conclusions without making ridiculous baseless assumptions. They usually work in the natural/physical sciences though which are a world apart from economic forecasts/predictions. Its quite clear you haven't read the report and you have no clue about science at all. Come back and discuss it properly when you have done so. Until then you're nothing more than a religious zealot believing forecasts you've not looked into.

    Oh, and its not one sided. Economists on both side have peddled the same nonsense: https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-imf-treasury

    Unlike you I like to deal with facts and the facts are that nobody has a clue what will happen in terms of the economy so the best thing to do is make a decision based on other areas of policy that people can actually ascertain facts from.

    Go and educate yourself: https://fullfact.org/economy/ten-thi...onomic-models/
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    No. I listen to experts when they actually come to solid conclusions without making ridiculous baseless assumptions. They usually work in the natural/physical sciences though which are a world apart from economic forecasts/predictions. Its quite clear you haven't read the report and you have no clue about science at all. Come back and discuss it properly when you have done so. Until then you're nothing more than a religious zealot believing forecasts you've not looked into.

    Oh, and its not one sided. Economists on both side have peddled the same nonsense: https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-imf-treasury

    Unlike you I like to deal with facts and the facts are that nobody has a clue what will happen in terms of the economy so the best thing to do is make a decision based on other areas of policy that people can actually ascertain facts from.

    Go and educate yourself: https://fullfact.org/economy/ten-thi...onomic-models/
    So if we go back in time by five hours, I think you'll remember me telling you that the economic issues aren't even my main problem with leaving the EU (although I should add at this point that I don't think that website supports what you're saying as much as you think it does), followed by me giving you a long explanation as to why the EU is extremely important for the aims you're trying to achieve and why leaving the EU is going to result in the polar opposite of what you want, followed by you essentially sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to respond to anything I've said. Even if I completely ignore everything an economist says, that changes nothing about what the scientific community is saying about the importance of the EU for international science, stability, environmental protection and resilience against global catastrophic risks, nor does it change anything about the fact that your idea that there's going to be some socialist revolution after leaving the EU is not merely a fantasy but is quite literally the polar opposite of what's probably going to happen.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    So if we go back in time by five hours, I think you'll remember me telling you that the economic issues aren't even my main problem with leaving the EU, followed by me giving you a long explanation as to why the EU is extremely important for the aims you're trying to achieve and why leaving the EU is going to result in the polar opposite of what you want, followed by you essentially sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to respond to anything I've said. Even if I completely ignore everything an economist says, that changes nothing about what the scientific community is saying about the importance of the EU for international science, stability, environmental protection and resilience against global catastrophic risks, nor does it change anything about the fact that your idea that there's going to be some socialist revolution after leaving the EU is not merely a fantasy but is quite literally the polar opposite of what's probably going to happen.
    All of this is your own opinion. You have no clue what will happen in the future just as nobody else does either. Your own arrogance is astounding.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    All of this is your own opinion. You have no clue what will happen in the future just as nobody else does either. Your own arrogance is astounding.
    It's not my opinion, it is the opinion of experts. I do not understand why you find it so hard to believe that the scientific community might understand more about the impact of leaving the EU on science than you do. I do not understand why you find it so hard to believe that academics studying existential risks might understand more about the impact of international unions on international resilience to global threats than you do. I do not understand why you find it so hard to believe that environmental NGOs might understand the impact of the EU on the environment more than you do. The only person being arrogant here is you, by completely disregarding the opinions of anybody who knows what they're talking about and acting as if everyone's opinion is just as valid as another's. They're not. Some people know better than others. This is straight, plain anti-intellectualism; you have a huge amount of contempt for people who understand what they're talking about because you do not like reality. There really is nothing else I can say here, you've managed to exasperate me. There's nothing I can do if you believe that your opinion on something is just as valid as someone who knows more about that something than you do. This is the definition of arrogance.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    It's not my opinion, it is the opinion of experts. I do not understand why you find it so hard to believe that the scientific community might understand more about the impact of leaving the EU on science than you do. I do not understand why you find it so hard to believe that academics studying existential risks might understand more about the impact of international unions on international resilience to global threats than you do. I do not understand why you find it so hard to believe that environmental NGOs might understand the impact of the EU on the environment more than you do. The only person being arrogant here is you, by completely disregarding the opinions of anybody who knows what they're talking about and acting as if everyone's opinion is just as valid as another's. They're not. Some people know better than others. This is straight, plain anti-intellectualism; you have a huge amount of contempt for people who understand what they're talking about because you do not like reality. There really is nothing else I can say here, you've managed to exasperate me. There's nothing I can do if you believe that your opinion on something is just as valid as someone who knows more about that something than you do. This is the definition of arrogance.
    Right, and I've already explained to you that the baseless assumptions made by these experts is questionable, but again, you've failed to accept that and are trying to pass off what they say as fact, and anyone that disagrees with them as being wrong. Complete and utter ******** really which proves you have no clue about science at all.

    I understand all of what they say quite easily but I also understand, thanks to actually studying a HARD science, not a borderline pseudo-****ing-science like economics that the baseless assumptions made and lack of true discourse mean they're hardly credible at all. The problem you have is you see 'IMF' and you see 'economist' and you think these people therefore must be right.

    Once again, for you and the others who are intellectually challenged: https://fullfact.org/economy/ten-thi...onomic-models/

    I hope the size 48 font helps it sink in. Now, once again, like I said before, go and ACTUALLY READ THE ****ING REPORTS and educate yourself.
    Understanding the assumptions that have gone into the models, and their potential limitations, is what makes them a good starting point for debate. They only provide part of the picture, and users should never let them have the final word.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    X
    I. Am. Not. Talking. About. Economics. How. Hard. Is. This. To. Understand. Good. Night. Sweet. Dreams.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I. Am. Not. Talking. About. Economics. How. Hard. Is. This. To. Understand. Good. Night. Sweet. Dreams.
    Have you read the reports?
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    It now costs about 10% more to study in the EU and this is rising daily thanks to the falling pound.

    We now have rising EU tuition fees, accommodation prices, food prices all rising for UK students wishing to study in the EU and its getting worse.

    This tuition fee comes to you via your Brexit voter...
    If someone is studying abroad - would they not work abroad - obtain and use Euro instead of pound?
 
 
 
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