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Palestinian woman attempts to stab Israeli soldiers, shot Watch

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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Well, I just feel shocked that I just witnessed a person die.
    You didn't, she's alive.

    I understand she was stupid, probably thinking she's some freedom fighter about to free her country.
    If you watch Palestinian TV, you'll see they speak far less about getting their own Palestinian state than they talk about "expelling the filthy Jews". The religious bigotry element is far stronger these days than the nationalistic element that dominated in the 1960s and 70s.

    But in the end, she was stupid, and yea she should have seen it coming.
    On that we are in agreement. I do feel bad for her in some ways because she was probably manipulated by sinister older men who run these movements, and has been propagandised from birth to hate all Jews.

    But I also feel bad for the soldiers. They were put in an impossible situation
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Well if that was your case then the same can be said by the Israelis. We have to stop looking at this from one point of view and start understanding that this situation involves both Israelis and Palestinians. It's not a boxing match where only one has to win.
    Of course. Your point would be valid if this occurred on Israeli land. This occurred on the west bank where Israel illegally occupies it.

    I have no sympathy for invaders.
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    (Original post by trollingftw)
    The jews are taught by their own religion that they were banished.
    Banished? You clearly don't know that much about Judaism. In any case, many Israelis are atheists and religion is bull **** anyway. Weird ancient religious beliefs should have no bearing on modern geopolitical questions.

    By the way, the Quran clearly says that Allah gave the Land of Israel to the Jews. So should we follow that?

    When Palestine was split into Israel and Palestine an agreement was made and Israel violated that.
    You're kidding, right? In 1948 the UN split the Levant into Israel and Palestine. The Israelis accepted that partition and declared their new state, the Palestinians and Arab world refused it point-blank and the armies of five Arab nations invaded Israel attempting to destroy it before it could even begin. The Israelis fought amazingly, with very little equipment and arms, and beat five armies and the Palestinians.

    Many criticisms of Israel can be made, particularly relating to the settlements. But the criticism you're making cannot; the historical record is not disputed that Israel accepted the partition and the Islamic world did not.
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    (Original post by trollingftw)
    Of course. Your point would be valid if this occurred on Israeli land. This occurred on the west bank where Israel illegally occupies it.
    It occurred in Ariel which even the Palestinian Authority has basically accepted will be be part of Israel in any two-state deal, in exchange for equal amounts of land from within the 1948 borders.

    I have no sympathy for invaders.
    They're 18 year old kids. Is it their fault they were born in Israel, a country which has mandatory national service?
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    You have just witnessed a woman die and you don't think you might have some compassion for her at all? Yea she had a knife, but they had guns, they could have shot her in the legs, they didn't have to kill her.
    Why shoot her in the leg? This is a woman who was clearly trying to inflict terror and why should she receive Israeli public funding in an Israeli hospital given she has a clear motive against the Israeli people?
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    Banished? You clearly don't know that much about Judaism. In any case, many Israelis are atheists and religion is bull **** anyway. Weird ancient religious beliefs should have no bearing on modern geopolitical questions.

    By the way, the Quran clearly says that Allah gave the Land of Israel to the Jews. So should we follow that?



    You're kidding, right? In 1948 the UN split the Levant into Israel and Palestine. The Israelis accepted that partition and declared their new state, the Palestinians and Arab world refused it point-blank and the armies of five Arab nations invaded Israel attempting to destroy it before it could even begin. The Israelis fought amazingly, with very little equipment and arms, and beat five armies and the Palestinians.

    Many criticisms of Israel can be made, particularly relating to the settlements. But the criticism you're making cannot; the historical record is not disputed that Israel accepted the partition and the Islamic world did not.
    Gosh - an interesting and informed post in a thread about Israel / Palestine. Nice one!
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    Why shoot her in the leg? This is a woman who was clearly trying to inflict terror and why should she receive Israeli public funding in an Israeli hospital given she has a clear motive against the Israeli people?
    She was in Palestine if I am not mistaken.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    She was in Palestine if I am not mistaken.
    She was in an area, Ariel, that is an Israeli area of the West Bank which even the Palestinian Authority have agreed in principle will be part of Israel in any future two-state deal.

    Injured captured terrorists are invariably taken to Israeli hospitals partly because they're better and partly because there would be a high chance of escape if she was taken to a Palestinian hospital
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    She was in an area, Ariel, that is an Israeli area of the West Bank which even the Palestinian Authority have agreed in principle will be part of Israel in any future two-state deal.

    Injured captured terrorists are invariably taken to Israeli hospitals partly because they're better and partly because there would be a high chance of escape if she was taken to a Palestinian hospital
    Makes sense, thanks.
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    She was in an area, Ariel, that is an Israeli area of the West Bank which even the Palestinian Authority have agreed in principle will be part of Israel in any future two-state deal.
    They have agreed nothing of the sort.

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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    They have agreed nothing of the sort.

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    During the Clinton-sponsored negotiations, they agreed to land swaps. Everyone understands that they will be part of any final agreement.

    Do you think the attempted stabbing was justified? Do you think the stabbing of the 13 year old settler girl the other week was justified?
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    During the Clinton-sponsored negotiations, they agreed to land swaps. Everyone understands that they will be part of any final agreement.
    They agreed to the principle of land swaps, yes. They did not agree to cede any particular territory, and in subsequent negotiations the Palestinian negotiators have not been willing to give up the Ariel area.

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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    They agreed to the principle of land swaps, yes. They did not agree to cede any particular territory, and in subsequent negotiations the Palestinian negotiators have not been willing to give up the Ariel area.
    It seems self-evident that Ariel is pretty much the only area that you can absolutely guarantee will be part of any future land swap. Maybe Maale Adumim too.

    The thing is, the Palestinians don't really have many cards. Saying "We won't give up Ariel" means the Israelis say "Cool, we'll just keep occupying you then". In fact, the cards they do have are getting fewer and fewer as the Israelis perfect their surface-to-air anti-rocke systems (including laser systems coming online). It used to be that suicide bombers were Palestine's card. The separation walls and Gaza disengagement put an end to that. Then it was the rockets, and the Israelis are slowly putting an end to that too. The longer it goes on the more settlers live in the West Bank and the harder it is to convince the Israelis to take the plunge and remove those who have to be removed

    What of the questions about justifiability? Do you think the knife attack was justified, and do you think the murder of the 13 year old settler girl was justified?
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    It seems self-evident that Ariel is pretty much the only area that you can absolutely guarantee will be part of any future land swap. Maybe Maale Adumim too.
    Actually, it seems they're both way down the list, as there are plenty of settlements closer to the border which it would be far easier for Palestine to cede. For example, the map offered by the Palestinian delegation in the 2008 talks would have involved Israel annexing territory including 63% of settlers, including both Modi'in Illit and Beitar Illit, the two largest Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but did not cede either Ariel or Maale Adumim.

    The thing is, the Palestinians don't really have many cards. Saying "We won't give up Ariel" means the Israelis say "Cool, we'll just keep occupying you then". In fact, the cards they do have are getting fewer and fewer as the Israelis perfect their surface-to-air anti-rocke systems (including laser systems coming online). It used to be that suicide bombers were Palestine's card. The separation walls and Gaza disengagement put an end to that. Then it was the rockets, and the Israelis are slowly putting an end to that too. The longer it goes on the more settlers live in the West Bank and the harder it is to convince the Israelis to take the plunge and remove those who have to be removed
    For a start, that's an argument ad baculum fallacy.

    On a second note, I'd say that the Palestinians have two cards whose importance is gradually increasing. Firstly, international opinion is increasingly turning against Israel, as it has been for a while. Secondly, and more importantly, is the argument that has been voiced by some Israeli moderate leaders such as Barak and Olmert, that Israel cannot viably rule over the Palestinians indefinitely, especially if settlements continue to increase. It will make a viable Palestinian state more and more unlikely, and the discourse will gradually shift away from a debate around independence and territory to one of political rights and equality.

    What of the questions about justifiability? Do you think the knife attack was justified, and do you think the murder of the 13 year old settler girl was justified?
    In short, no, I don't think knife attacks on civilians are justified. Though this bears no real relevance to my initial point.
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    In 1948 the UN split the Levant into Israel and Palestine.
    Not exactly. The UN General Assembly passed a resolution supporting the UNSCOP majority proposal for a partition plan. As with all GA resolutions, this was purely recommendatory and non-binding. The Security Council never voted on the proposal. Also, neither the plan nor the resolution named the states, and indeed didn't know what they were to be called, they just called them the "Jewish state" and the "Arab state". It was unknown that the former would be called Israel until it was declared - names like Judea, Zion, and even Herzliya were also possibilities.

    The Israelis accepted that partition
    As noted above, there were no 'Israelis' at the time, as the state didn't exist yet. The Jewish Agency, recognised by the British Mandate as the official body of the Jewish community in Palestine, officially accepted the plan, though their sincerity in doing so is somewhat doubtful. Some Jewish groups, like Irgun and Lehi, rejected the plan outright.

    and declared their new state, the Palestinians and Arab world refused it point-blank
    Unlike the Jewish Agency, there was no officially recognised Palestinian Arab body to reject the plan. Several prominent Palestinian leaders, as well as leaders of other Arab states rejected the plan, yes. But the general Palestinian feeling was one of indifference, as Ben-Gurion himself acknowledged, saying "They, the decisive majority of them [Palestinians], do not want to fight us."

    and the armies of five Arab nations invaded Israel
    Tell me, what were Israel's borders on 15 May 1948? The Declaration of Independence specifies none, and indeed reference to the UNSCOP-proposed borders was deliberately rejected. An invasion involves aggressively entering another state's sovereign territory - it's a meaningless concept if a state has no defined sovereign territory.

    The Israelis fought amazingly, with very little equipment and arms, and beat five armies and the Palestinians.
    Not really that 'amazingly'. Contrary to the David v Goliath nationalist narrative propagated by Israel, it's increasingly accepted by historians that Israel won because it was the stronger side militarily. Israeli leaders, partly due to the Arab states' propaganda but also their own paranoia, heavily overestimated the strength, commitment and level of co-operation of the Arab armies (and even then, they thought they were fairly evenly matched).
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    You have just witnessed a woman die and you don't think you might have some compassion for her at all? Yea she had a knife, but they had guns, they could have shot her in the legs, they didn't have to kill her.
    This isn't some movie or video game, shooting at the legs or arms isn't feasible in a real world scenario
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    (Original post by trollingftw)
    free palestine
    Prior to the Six Days War (1967), the Arabs living in Gaza called themselves Egyptians and those living in the 'West Bank' called themselves Jordanians.Then, almost a week later (at the end of the war) they started calling themselves Palestinians.

    In March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw, PLO senior member Zuheir Mohsen said:
    “Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part
    of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our
    Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

    A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied
    territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria.
    Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while
    I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem and Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and
    the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world and elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second.”

    The Palestinians, the invented people!
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    Before the partition, the arabs jews and christians lived in this area together in peace. Side by side.
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    (Original post by physicsphysics91)
    Good to hear. Palestinians seem extremely violent and should be felt with accordingly. Long live Israel
    Followers of the death cult love to kill or die to go straight to 'heaven'.
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    What an idiot, annex Palestine.
 
 
 
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