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Scottish Labour backing SECOND REFERENDUM on Indy... watch

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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I don't think so I'm afraid. If Scotland voted out of the UK and into the EU, for starters the process would take at least a decade. There would be much short-term pain for Scotland, like there is in the UK now.

    The City will lose a chunk of jobs to Paris, Zurich and Frankfurt even if we stay in the EEA, because they will want a lobby in a country with voting rights. It'll be a good thing for Europe to have finance distributed around, but the UK will lose a large chunk of its only successful industry.
    ....Well not its only one - there is Diageo in Fife.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    All too often the money is made by workers in the provinces and counted at head office in London.
    Oh, tosh. The services sector is what makes London an economic powerhouse - it isn't dependent on some sort of manufacturing or semi-skilled labour going on in provincial Britain. We're talking about global industries like financial services.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Scotland is the third highest producing region in the UK, after London and the South East (its hinterland). This is despite the infrastructure challenges Scotland faces due to its geographical isolation and ruggedness.

    I don't understand the level of sectarian bile the English right wing have against Scotland. Seriously, what is your problem?
    What your seeing is the English Nationalists rise up and celebrate their patriotism. After a Brexit win they aren't going to shy away from the usual accusations of racism or comments of being right-wing.Your just going to have to put up with it because most English people have to put up with the SNP Nationalists etc.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    What your seeing is the English Nationalists rise up and celebrate their patriotism. After a Brexit win they aren't going to shy away from the usual accusations of racism or comments of being right-wing.Your just going to have to put up with it because most English people have to put up with the SNP Nationalists etc.
    It's tawdry. In my view what makes Britain better than other countries is how we are self-effacing rather than self-promoting.

    Of course the English may be a different matter, now the notion of Britishness has become so deprecated.

    It is certainly a funny sort of patriotism that votes to give up much of our political and economic influence on the world stage and to impoverish our countrymen.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    What your seeing is the English Nationalists rise up and celebrate their patriotism. After a Brexit win they aren't going to shy away from the usual accusations of racism or comments of being right-wing.Your just going to have to put up with it because most English people have to put up with the SNP Nationalists etc.
    Its not patriotism to take millions of peoples jobs away. Destroy the airline industry, destroy the banking industry, destroy the UK, destroy the pound.

    I cant see anything to be happy about at all. Its a national disaster.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    It's tawdry. In my view what makes Britain better than other countries is how we are self-effacing rather than self-promoting.

    Of course the English may be a different matter, now the notion of Britishness has become so deprecated.

    It is certainly a funny sort of patriotism that votes to give up much of our political and economic influence on the world stage and to impoverish our countrymen.
    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Its not patriotism to take millions of peoples jobs away. Destroy the airline industry, destroy the banking industry, destroy the UK, destroy the pound.

    I cant see anything to be happy about at all. Its a national disaster.
    Scrotgot I use to look up to you in some way but at the moment you are acting like a London Luvvie.

    What you need to realise is the native working class English have been castrated in so many ways. They've had their wages forced down by globalisation. They've had their culture destroyed by do-good-ing liberals and to top it off they have been forced to the fringes of the political debate.
    They decided that they would be willing to put their country into a uncertain future in order to get control of it back. They have nothing to loose and more to gain out of this Brexit while everyone else is loosing out.

    And when I say they have nothing to loose they really don't. They are living in over crowded housing which is full of mould. They are eating the same kind of food which is served in refugee camps and when winter comes they freeze & their bones ach.

    You can rant all you like but I have done my patriotic duty and united with these people.

    Did you know that the whole of East Lincolnshire voted leave up to 70% which includes Great Grimsby?
    Did you know the whole Labour heartlands in the Midlands and the North voted over 70%?

    These are my people and I know what their going though.

    I think both of you have forgot the kind of poverty people have been living though in Britain. It didn't just start when the Tories where in power. Its been here since people have been displaced by globalism.

    And what is really obvious is your ignoring it and only ranting on about ME ME ME ME ME! WHAT ABOUT ME ME ME ME!You have lost touch with your roots.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...cottish-labour

    Be great if they backed SECOND BREXIT referendum too.

    Keep signing that petition - need it to get to 5 million!
    Well done Dugdale, you just lost more votes to the Tories
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Scotland is the third highest producing region in the UK, after London and the South East (its hinterland). This is despite the infrastructure challenges Scotland faces due to its geographical isolation and ruggedness.

    I don't understand the level of sectarian bile the English right wing have against Scotland. Seriously, what is your problem?
    I don't like it, but it's pretty understandable given that the media in England particularly seem to focus on the SNP as if they are the voice of Scotland, when of course their position was rejected by a pretty big majority of Scots. Some English people seem genuinely surprised that there are Unionists in Scotland who care about the future of Britain and feel invested in it. Unfortunately nationalism breeds nationalism.

    Scotland does have the third highest GVA per capita, that is true. But again, if you're talking about "subsidy" - and I never do, it's pooling and sharing within a country - then you're only looking at one side of the equation. Higher public spending in Scotland massively overwhelms any additional revenues it brings in.

    I don't think we win this fight by denying that - we win it by pointing out that Scotland, like other parts of the UK, has challenges and that fiscal sharing across Britain is a good thing.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I don't think so I'm afraid. If Scotland voted out of the UK and into the EU, for starters the process would take at least a decade. There would be much short-term pain for Scotland, like there is in the UK now.

    The City will lose a chunk of jobs to Paris, Zurich and Frankfurt even if we stay in the EEA, because they will want a lobby in a country with voting rights. It'll be a good thing for Europe to have finance distributed around, but the UK will lose a large chunk of its only successful industry.
    Project Fear!!!!1111one
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    I love the attitude displayed towards the Scots by the same people who voted leave because they didn't want the EU "dictatorship" telling them what to do.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...cottish-labour

    Be great if they backed SECOND BREXIT referendum too.

    Keep signing that petition - need it to get to 5 million!
    I'm a remainer, but if leaving EU means we can get rid of Scotland then that's something good that comes from all this. Part of me does not want a second Brexit referendum because if we vote remain Scotland will stay
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Scrotgot I use to look up to you in some way but at the moment you are acting like a London Luvvie.
    Yes, we have had exchanges on this before, talking about fascism. It doesn't do to paint me as unsympathetic to and unaware of this kind of thing. And of course I hate London luvvies.

    But what I hate more is us all voting to throw away our only economic lifeline. The working class English are not going to do well out of this, mark my words. All they may achieve is to pull down the middle classes. (The elites will be fine of course.)

    I have never been that sort of socialist.

    If we had something other than the City to fall back on I wouldn't mind so much.

    What you need to realise is the native working class English have been castrated in so many ways. They've had their wages forced down by globalisation. They've had their culture destroyed by do-good-ing liberals and to top it off they have been forced to the fringes of the political debate.
    If they are unable to carry on their culture when they are in a huge majority then it suggests to me that that culture was flimsy to start with. It's a pathetic cop-out to blame foreigners or those who let foreigners in. What has eviscerated their culture is that there are no more secure, stable jobs, especially not local to them.

    They decided that they would be willing to put their country into a uncertain future in order to get control of it back. They have nothing to loose and more to gain out of this Brexit while everyone else is loosing out.
    As above, they have nothing to gain, but everyone else certainly has something to lose. I'm afraid the main motivation I have seen from Leave supporters aware of class issues is base schadenfreude. I come to understand why Tories rail so hard against "the politics of envy".

    And when I say they have nothing to loose they really don't. They are living in over crowded housing which is full of mould. They are eating the same kind of food which is served in refugee camps and when winter comes they freeze & their bones ach.
    So why won't they vote for a party which will make that go away? Brexit will not change any of it.

    You can rant all you like but I have done my patriotic duty and united with these people.

    Did you know that the whole of East Lincolnshire voted leave up to 70% which includes Great Grimsby?
    Did you know the whole Labour heartlands in the Midlands and the North voted over 70%?

    These are my people and I know what their going though.

    I think both of you have forgot the kind of poverty people have been living though in Britain. It didn't just start when the Tories where in power. Its been here since people have been displaced by globalism.

    And what is really obvious is your ignoring it and only ranting on about ME ME ME ME ME! WHAT ABOUT ME ME ME ME!You have lost touch with your roots.
    Again it is a bit presumptuous of you to say this, as if I'm ignorant of how horrifically out of touch Labour is and why. I am lower middle class by culture and household income. I'm not at home with either working class or upper middle class people but I would hope I understand them well enough.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    What you need to realise is the native working class English have been castrated in so many ways. They've had their wages forced down by globalisation.
    People's disposable incomes have more than doubled since the 1980s in real terms. To suggest we are somehow worse off that we were in some distant idyllic time-period is, bluntly, rubbish.

    They've had their culture destroyed by do-good-ing liberals
    Oh for heaven's sake. Make your own "culture", do what you want. Britain as a society is far more open and accepting than it was in the past - except, thankfully, where it comes to racism, homophobia and bigotry.

    They have nothing to loose
    We're talking about a country where the state provides people with homes if they can't afford them, food, income, heating - all manner of luxuries unknown to our forebears. If they think that is "nothing to lose" they're ****ing idiots.

    And when I say they have nothing to loose they really don't. They are living in over crowded housing which is full of mould. They are eating the same kind of food which is served in refugee camps and when winter comes they freeze & their bones ach.
    I think you're talking about down-and-outs rather than the working class here. If you're in that state, chances are you're probably an alcoholic, drug-abuser or have mental health issues.

    The state provides a reasonable income to even the worst-off to eat healthily and heat their homes. It provides refrigerators and washing machines - expensive luxuries to even my grandparents' generation. We'll give you free training, support to learn and help with your CV - not to mention free childcare if you're daft enough to have children when you can't afford to look after them.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    All too often the money is made by workers in the provinces and counted at head office in London.

    London relies for its prosperity on cheap labour located in cheaper areas of the country.

    And not only that, very many people who physically work in London live in the cheaper South-East or East of England or East Midlands.

    Since the Scotland statistical region doesn't separate out city from hinterland, and since I would imagine few UK-wide companies have their head office in Scotland, this is not really a factor with them.

    Scotland punches greatly above its weight, although it's possible that these figures are inflated by oil, particularly before the price fell last year. Such dependence weakens the fundamentals of the Scottish economy even if the GVA statistic is good.
    I thought they had no oil left anyway
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    (Original post by UKCATrocks)
    I thought they had no oil left anyway
    I looked cursorily at GVA figures dated 2013, so before the oil price came down.
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    Not going to happen. Not unless this silly petition exceeds 17 odd million. Even then... no chance.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    People's disposable incomes have more than doubled since the 1980s in real terms. To suggest we are somehow worse off that we were in some distant idyllic time-period is, bluntly, rubbish.



    Oh for heaven's sake. Make your own "culture", do what you want. Britain as a society is far more open and accepting than it was in the past - except, thankfully, where it comes to racism, homophobia and bigotry.



    We're talking about a country where the state provides people with homes if they can't afford them, food, income, heating - all manner of luxuries unknown to our forebears. If they think that is "nothing to lose" they're ****ing idiots.



    I think you're talking about down-and-outs rather than the working class here. If you're in that state, chances are you're probably an alcoholic, drug-abuser or have mental health issues.

    The state provides a reasonable income to even the worst-off to eat healthily and heat their homes. It provides refrigerators and washing machines - expensive luxuries to even my grandparents' generation. We'll give you free training, support to learn and help with your CV - not to mention free childcare if you're daft enough to have children when you can't afford to look after them.
    More succinct and powerful than me. I think now we have come out of Europe and there has been a hard-right coup in the governing Tory party the return of slums, no minimum wage, savage benefit cuts etc is more likely than ever before.
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    Let me put it the simplest form that you can understand.

    Native working class Brits feel marginalised. They voted leave to increase their prospect for jobs.

    Wages may have risen from 80s but housing & energy costs have got more expensive.

    Migrants have caused wages to stagnate during the last 10 years.

    And Native Brits decided they had enough.

    The damage is already done. What are we going to do about it?
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Let me put it the simplest form that you can understand.

    Native working class Brits feel marginalised. They voted leave to increase their prospect for jobs.

    Wages may have risen from 80s but housing & energy costs have got more expensive.

    Migrants have caused wages to stagnate during the last 10 years.

    And Native Brits decided they had enough.

    The damage is already done. What are we going to do about it?
    We all understand that, but there was no rational basis to decide they had had enough. I well know people don't vote rationally, but we should at least argue rationally. Certainly countrywide referendum campaigns on matters of monumental national importance and led by experienced government ministers should do so.

    Even if immigration were the main thing keeping wages down, surely the rational thing to do would be to insist on controlling the immigration we can control first, i.e. non-EU. And then linking up with like-minded political forces elsewhere in Europe to drive through a less dogmatic approach to free movement in Brussels. As a remain voter I have long thought we should do both, although as in my view immigration doesn't make much difference to the economy I don't really care either way.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    We all understand that, but there was no rational basis to decide they had had enough. I well know people don't vote rationally, but we should at least argue rationally. Certainly countrywide referendum campaigns on matters of monumental national importance and led by experienced government ministers should do so.

    Even if immigration were the main thing keeping wages down, surely the rational thing to do would be to insist on controlling the immigration we can control first, i.e. non-EU. And then linking up with like-minded political forces elsewhere in Europe to drive through a less dogmatic approach to free movement in Brussels.
    Damage is already done. England is going hard-right and Scotland is going hard-left.
 
 
 
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