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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Ok, 2 plus 2 is five. You need to respect my opinion on that. It's all subjective.
    It's a fact that 2+2=4. If someone desagrees with that is either a two year old or mentally challenged.
    There are however some things that people can share different opinions on. How.one voices those opinions is another matter. If the person is being an ******* about it then its only natural that you wont respect them. If they are trying to have a civilized conversation and you're disregarding every single thing they say then you're the ****.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Of course all opinions are valid. Why? Because we live in a democracy. And if you don't like it, burger off to North Korea.
    Except they aren't. Living in a democracy doesn't mean the Earth is flat when 51% of people decide it's flat.
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    (Original post by venetiaan)
    It's a fact that 2+2=4. If someone desagrees with that is either a two year old or mentally challenged.
    There are however some things that people can share different opinions on. How.one voices those opinions is another matter. If the person is being an ******* about it then its only natural that you wont respect them. If they are trying to have a civilized conversation and you're disregarding every single thing they say then you're the ****.
    I agree although I've had perfectly civilised conversations with amongst others neo nazis who think that the holocaust was a good thing/exaggerated/ didn't happen , and haven't respected their opinion in the slightest
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Everybody's treated the same, that's how the system works.
    I suspect you didn't mean it to sound like that but... wow. This is not the opinion of the majority of the world or UK population.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Except they aren't. Living in a democracy doesn't mean the Earth is flat when 51% of people decide it's flat.
    Hell even if it's 99.9% of people.

    It's reminiscent of 1984- . You'd be shocked at how many otherwise intelligent people would disagree, which scares the bejesus out of me. History is full of cases where democracy has got it wrong.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Except they aren't. Living in a democracy doesn't mean the Earth is flat when 51% of people decide it's flat.
    No. But since when were matters of fact and science matters of politics? Voting for or against Cameron because of his hair style is a perfectly reasonable way to vote and ironically probably a better way of making a decision compared to what comes out of his mouth. You may not like it, but it is perfectly valid.

    Ridiculing folks like this simply shuts down the argument. I have unfollowed about 75% of my Facebook friends simply because their feeds are littered with continuous political propaganda. They don't want to debate. Just to shove it down my throat. So I have turned them off. Their voice is no more. In my eyes, they have lost the argument. They no longer have the opportunity to influence me.

    You are doing exactly the same. If you want to win the argument, you have to start by listening. If you want to hear something pretty inspirational, have a listen to the story of Daryl Davis, a black musician who through dialogue over many years, eventually shut down the Klu Klux Klan in his county. Why? Because he engaged with them. He listened and eventually turned them. It is a superb story and worth 40 minutes of your time.

    https://soundcloud.com/loveandradio/the-silver-dollar
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    Then don't respect my opinion. I don't give a sh*t. It just proves your narrow-mindedness.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I agree although I've had perfectly civilised conversations with amongst others neo nazis who think that the holocaust was a good thing/exaggerated/ didn't happen , and haven't respected their opinion in the slightest
    Neo nazis belong in the category of people that I meantioned before. Their opinions literally go against some people's survival so no of course you cant respect them.
    And yes the decisions made by people in democratic countries may have been wrong before but seriously what political system would you rather have?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Completely agree. People seem to think that being entitled to an opinion means all opinions are equally valid. No, if you're full of **** you're just full of ****. It shouldn't be acceptable to believe things that are blatantly wrong, people should be challenged on their views. Otherwise you end up with stuff like these "vaccines cause autism" neanderthals that put real lives at risk, or these idiots that would let millions of Africans starve because they heard on the internet that GM crops are bad.
    This is the most idiotic thing I've ever read on the internet.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Except they aren't. Living in a democracy doesn't mean the Earth is flat when 51% of people decide it's flat.
    That's a stupid comment and you know it. Whether the Earth is flat or not is a matter of right or wrong. Correct or incorrect. Even in the days when people believed the world was flat, they knew that it either was or wasn't. In politics there is no right answer. You think we should Remain in the EU, I think we should Leave. Both sides have arguments, neither is the right 'answer'.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Ok, 2 plus 2 is five. You need to respect my opinion on that. It's all subjective.
    The difference is that there's factual evidence that conflicts with your opinion. You are entitled to hold that opinion, but it is one conflicted by factual information (talking at a higher level) when that assertion is tested scientifically. You can hold an opinion, but it can be factually wrong. However, even the argument I've made made could be torn apart on a deeper level when you start to scrutinise. The philosophical aspects of mathematics are another debate entirely.

    However, forecasts on the economy post-Brexit are not based on factual information. They are based on economic forecasts/projections. This is not factual information and it is greatly deceiving to try and pass this off as factual information. This was something purposefully done by the remain campaign to try and sway voters, even worse when if you look at the reports the assumptions made are utterly laughable. Pure conjecture.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/ten-thi...onomic-models/

    Arguing about such is entirely pointless, especially when it comes to the social science. Its entirely subjective as there are so many floating variables and aspects out of our control. Everyone is now arguing from different viewpoints. Its not like arguing about things scientifically proven or facts, its arguing about what ifs which is as idiotic as arguing about the weather on Tuesday.

    For example, for me to say a remain voter is wrong because they disagree with me is absurd. They are not wrong for having a different viewpoint on the matter and they are entitled to hold that opinion. I respect that they hold that opinion but I disagree with it because I see things from a different perspective, a different outlook on life and value different things in life. A loss in GDP per capita for me is not an issue whereas for others its a major issue which could influence their decision.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Except they aren't. Living in a democracy doesn't mean the Earth is flat when 51% of people decide it's flat.
    You can scientifically prove that the Earth is not flat. Economists do not prove a thing. They make forecasts.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    It's reminiscent of 1984- . You'd be shocked at how many otherwise intelligent people would disagree, which scares the bejesus out of me. History is full of cases where democracy has got it wrong.
    You can scientifically prove that the Earth is not flat (natural/physical science). Economists (social science) do not prove a thing. They make forecasts.

    They are not comparable in the slightest.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I've lost count of the times people in particular brexiters have told people like me (20s, graduate with a middle class background) not to sneer at those who voted for brexit even if they had ludicrous views e.g on the bus today a woman was saying she voted to leave because there were too many Russians.

    Now, this is by about brexiters or remainders- plenty of people on both sides voted for stupid reasons - eg voting to remain purely because only racists would vote leave. Why should we treat people with such ridiculous views with respect?

    The majority of them are not going to change their views with reasoned conversation.

    The brexiters argue that it's because:

    1: the will of the people, in which case:

    52% is not a huge mandate, possibly the only truthful thing Boris has said recently. Just because 2% more of the population voted for it doesn't mean the 48% are wrong. Just like if labour lose the next election it would not be undemocratic (far from it) labour continued to oppose the Tory government. at a general election it would be reasonable to campaign on not triggering article 50/ rejoining the EU.

    2: these people are the left behind.

    Aw diddums, my life sucks so I get to ignore reality and have my nonsensical views taken seriously. It's actually contemptuous of these people to pander , even to accept their ignorance and demanding their views are represented when knowing full well that they are talking gibberish. There is a difference between everyone's voice getting heard and everyone's voice being treated the same:

    Eg a fifty year old business director voting for brexit because of a well grounded list of EU regulations stopping his company making a profit should carry more weight than a eighteen year old cultural studies student who thinks that UKIP is worse than Isis.
    You talk like Brexit was either a "wrong" or "right" answer. It wasn't. It was a choice based on preference, what people want for this country, how you interpret what they want is up to you.

    By your stupid logic, I don't have to respect you as you are wrong on multiple issues
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    I suspect you didn't mean it to sound like that but... wow. This is not the opinion of the majority of the world or UK population.
    In terms of votes, which this thread is loosely about, it is both true and accurate.
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    (Original post by Manchester_123)
    You talk like Brexit was either a "wrong" or "right" answer.
    As I've highlighted before there are no right or wrong answers about leaving the EU when it comes down to purely political reasons. A belief in the primacy of the nation state does not have any scientific backing say but is I think a reasonable argument, which I have respect for.

    Leaving because the UK doesn't have a veto on Turkish accession to the EU is a factually wrong opinion.

    Staying in the EU because you see it as the best guarantor of peace in Europe (between EU states) is subjective but I think a rational argument.

    Staying in the EU because brexit will lead to the abolition of equal rights is a stupid and baseless argument.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    You can scientifically prove that the Earth is not flat. Economists do not prove a thing. They make forecasts.
    Depends on how you define "flat".
    The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    You can scientifically prove that the Earth is not flat (natural/physical science). Economists (social science) do not prove a thing. They make forecasts.

    They are not comparable in the slightest.
    Not quite.

    Whilst s great deal of politocs and economics is based on unpredictable human behaviour there are some factual elements.

    Eg

    How much money the EU costs us?
    How many members are in the EU?
    whst tangible benefits do we get out of the EU?

    Whilst your opinion can change on these things, they ultimately exist regardless of my own preferences.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Voting for or against Cameron because of his hair style is a perfectly reasonable way to vote and ironically probably a better way of making a decision compared to what comes out of his mouth. You may not like it, but it is perfectly valid.
    Good grief. No it isn't Christ.

    Ridiculing folks like this simply shuts down the argument. I have unfollowed about 75% of my Facebook friends simply because their feeds are littered with continuous political propaganda. They don't want to debate. Just to shove it down my throat. So I have turned them off. Their voice is no more. In my eyes, they have lost the argument. They no longer have the opportunity to influence me.

    You are doing exactly the same. If you want to win the argument, you have to start by listening. If you want to hear something pretty inspirational, have a listen to the story of Daryl Davis, a black musician who through dialogue over many years, eventually shut down the Klu Klux Klan in his county. Why? Because he engaged with them. He listened and eventually turned them. It is a superb story and worth 40 minutes of your time.

    https://soundcloud.com/loveandradio/the-silver-dollar
    |or you end up giving them a platform and legitimise their views. See the upsurge in racist incidents recently.

    In any case there are reasonable arguments on both sides and moronic ones on others. I don't see why I should respect the latter.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    You can scientifically prove that the Earth is not flat. Economists do not prove a thing. They make forecasts.
    Forecasts that have internal logic that actually make sense are superior to forecasts that have internal logic that is flawed. e.g. the brexit claim that the pound will surge if the UK leaves the EU or that the UK will increase NHS spending by £8 billion due to extra funds if the Uk leaves the EU. http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?fr...to=USD&view=1M

    You obviously want to claim that all options and opinions are equal regardless of the internal logic they are based on because you are concerned that experts in their fields contradict your expectations of brexit which were fed to you by the dailymail.
 
 
 
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