Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

'How DARE Brussels tell us how many migrants can live in our country?' says Hungary. Watch

    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    19
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by generallee)

    And it is their country, you see. Not yours.
    It is their country, but they joined the EU so they can have the benefits and get given billions of Euros for free. As part of that they are expected to comply with EU rules and support its aims and ideas.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 999tigger)
    It is their country, but they joined the EU so they can have the benefits and get given billions of Euros for free. As part of that they are expected to comply with EU rules and support its aims and ideas.
    Here we have the whole problem of the European Union, in a nutshell

    It has zero democratic legitimacy, it answers to no-one, and is impossible to remove from power, in any practicable sense. Yet it assumes quasi fascistic supra national powers to itself.

    It says to a free, sovereign, people "Obey us! Do as we tell you, or it will be the worse for you financially!"

    So that people must submit, and become neither free nor sovereign. Bending the knee to the unelected Brussels eurocracy.

    They did it to Greece. You want them to do it to Hungary. They are trying to do it to us.

    It amazes me that some people still don't see through the European Union.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Germany and Sweden dont decide who to let into Hungary.
    In practical, if not legal, terms that is what happened last summer.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Joinedup)
    hmmm


    I think "culturally integratable" might mean no muslims... "guest worker" afaik means no route to citizenship.



    Seems to be bending over backwards to reassure the existing population that migration will be tightly controlled and not a threat to their jobs... maybe they were a bit better in touch with the fears of their population than our lot.
    But they will find that there isn't a very long queue of Finns wanting to move to Hungary.

    Hungarians have sensitivities about Russians and Turks and they will want to look further afield and that means Africa, the middle east, the Indian sub-continent or the far east.
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    19
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by generallee)
    Here we have the whole problem of the European Union, in a nutshell

    It has zero democratic legitimacy, it answers to no-one, and is impossible to remove from power, in any practicable sense. Yet it assumes quasi fascistic supra national powers to itself.

    It says to a free, sovereign, people "Obey us! Do as we tell you, or it will be the worse for you financially!"

    So that people must submit, and become neither free nor sovereign. Bending the knee to the unelected Brussels eurocracy.

    They did it to Greece. You want them to do it to Hungary. They are trying to do it to us.

    It amazes me that some people still don't see through the European Union.
    Wrong. The legitimate government fo each state signs up to the EU and the way it is run. Nobody forced them to join. 83.8% of Hungarians opted in referendum in 2003 to join. In return the Hungarians have had many billions of Euros given to them. They are being asked to take a tiny 1204 refugees, which they are squealing over, which is a tiny fraction of the number other countries are taking. It wasnt so long ago when Hungarians were fleeing persecution and were refugees themselves.

    Its a collective organisation of 28, so it has to be run in a different way otherwise it would be unmanageable.

    If they cnat dela with being one of 28 members then they should leave and hand back the money they eagerly grasped. Hungary is being pathetic, hence it will be ok to give them less free money if they dont want to assume a fair share of the burden everyone else is taking. They should abide by the rules and not just when it suits them.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 999tigger)
    It's not really a problem. If they wont help collectively then they can just take the fines and reduction of subsides as a result. The quota plan comes from the EU Commission, which I believe is an EU body. I believe there might be soemthing about the Commission in the EU treaties as well....

    Germany and Sweden dont decide who to let into Hungary.
    The redistribution of refugees is itself legal but the initial admission of refugees violated at least the spirit if not the letter of the Schengen Agreement. If the refugees had not been initially admitted by Germany and Sweden there would be far fewer of them to redistribute.

    Germany has acted unilaterally to create a huge problem (for itself, mostly) and then acted through the EU to make other countries pay to fix it. I can understand why Hungary is upset about this and doesn't feel much moral obligation to go along with Germany's plans.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    But they will find that there isn't a very long queue of Finns wanting to move to Hungary.

    Hungarians have sensitivities about Russians and Turks and they will want to look further afield and that means Africa, the middle east, the Indian sub-continent or the far east.


    The Philippines would be a great place. Apart from in Mindanao they are Catholic like 40% of Hungarians, highly educated, hard working and skilled, a delightful people who assimilate well, wherever they go.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Immigration as a political issue is increasingly becoming like abortion. In other words, it's going to happen whether you like it or not. The question is whether it will be done in a legal, supervised and safe way, or in a criminalised, uncontrollable and dangerous way.

    It's an inevitable part of globalisation, especially a globalisation centred on free trade and neoliberalism.
    Offline

    6
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by generallee)
    Here we have the whole problem of the European Union, in a nutshell

    It has zero democratic legitimacy, it answers to no-one, and is impossible to remove from power, in any practicable sense. Yet it assumes quasi fascistic supra national powers to itself.

    It says to a free, sovereign, people "Obey us! Do as we tell you, or it will be the worse for you financially!"

    So that people must submit, and become neither free nor sovereign. Bending the knee to the unelected Brussels eurocracy.

    They did it to Greece. You want them to do it to Hungary. They are trying to do it to us.

    It amazes me that some people still don't see through the European Union.
    52% of us did .


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Immigration as a political issue is increasingly becoming like abortion. In other words, it's going to happen whether you like it or not. The question is whether it will be done in a legal, supervised and safe way, or in a criminalised, uncontrollable and dangerous way.

    It's an inevitable part of globalisation, especially a globalisation centred on free trade and neoliberalism.
    Not true, it is very very easy to stop if a government wishes, especially if the nation is surrounded by water.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 999tigger)
    It is their country, but they joined the EU so they can have the benefits and get given billions of Euros for free. As part of that they are expected to comply with EU rules and support its aims and ideas.
    This is why we voted to leave. Hungary should too.
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    19
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    This is why we voted to leave. Hungary should too.
    That makes sense, not as though they will miss the 6 billion free euros given to them every year.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 999tigger)
    That makes sense, not as though they will miss the 6 billion free euros given to them every year.
    They might but hen they might think preserving their culture is worth the cost
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    52% of us did .



    Not true, it is very very easy to stop if a government wishes, especially if the nation is surrounded by water.
    No it isn't and the abortion analogy is quite a good one.

    There are some members of the public who would quite happily have the entirety of government policy revolve around immigration but that would be very much a minority viewpoint even amongst those who care deeply about immigration. Phil Woolas found that when as immigration minister he was confronted with the public campaign by the Gurkhas

    .Immigration comprises three groups; EU legal immigration, non-EU legal immigration and illegal immigration.

    Since April 2011 the UK has operation a quota system for skilled non EU migrants of 20,700 a year. The first month since then when the quota was reached was June 2015. The cap has not yet been hit for any month in 2016. Yet during this period hundreds of thousands of non-EU citizens have migrated to the UK. You have the paradox of the route designed for economic migrants not being fully utilised, yet at the same time there are huge numbers of migrants.

    The reality is that these other migrants are coming here lawfully by other routes; routes which if they were closed would cause consternation amongst those members of the public whose views are not dominated by immigration to the exclusion of all other political issues.

    Mr & Mrs Middle-Class would not tolerate the idea that if their daughter married an American, their son in law could not live here; Mr Old-Soldier would not be happy if the Commonwealth veteran who served in the British Army and was wounded in Afghanistan could not retire here.

    If one moves on to illegal immigration, the vast majority of illegal immigrants, over 90%, are over-stayers, not people in the back of a lorry. There are 200,000 Chinese tourists in the UK and about 90,000 Chinese students a year. We don't know the nationality of illegal immigrants but if we said, say 2.5% of Chinese visitors and students overstayed their visas, that would 7,250 a year. In the great balance of things the benefit the 97.5% of the law abiding Chinese put into the British economy will vastly exceed what the 2.5% of illegals take out of the British economy (as by definition they will be low service users because they are living below the radar). You could run government policy around the 2.5% but you will be imposing a shattering blow on the economy.

    The Referendum temporarily empowered a lot of people with marginal connection to the economy who are concerned about immigration to the exclusion of virtually everything else. They have had their tantrum and power has passed back to the grown-ups. The position will not be the same as it was before, and the grown ups will have more regard to the interests of those who threw their toys out of their prams, but the economic dilemmas around immigration have not gone away, and there are other dilemmas to follow.

    The security services are yet to say the unsayable; that not regularising the position of illegal Muslim immigrants is a national security threat. The current generation of home-grown Muslim terrorists are the descendants of legal immigrants and are "on the radar". What happens when we have a generation of radicalised youths who are the children of folk living "off the radar"? What happens when we try and keep tabs on the radicalisation of folk who are hiding for their parents' immigration not national security reasons?
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    19
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    They might but hen they might think preserving their culture is worth the cost
    They are perfectly free to leave.

    They are signatories to the 51 convention on Refugees, so refusing to take any is contrary to the agreement they signed up to. They should withdraw from the Convention.

    Refusing to work in conjunction with the EU and its other members is contrary to being in the EU. They should stop leeching money from the EU if they cnat abide by the rules.

    Refusing migrants is a bit rich considering hundreds of thousands left Hungary after the 1956 revolution. There are 80,000 Hungarian migrants in the UK.

    Hardly think 1204, which equates to 1 refugee in 8,000 is going to bring about the collapse of Hungana society. That's 0.001125%.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    No it isn't and the abortion analogy is quite a good one.

    There are some members of the public who would quite happily have the entirety of government policy revolve around immigration but that would be very much a minority viewpoint even amongst those who care deeply about immigration. Phil Woolas found that when as immigration minister he was confronted with the public campaign by the Gurkhas

    .Immigration comprises three groups; EU legal immigration, non-EU legal immigration and illegal immigration.

    Since April 2011 the UK has operation a quota system for skilled non EU migrants of 20,700 a year. The first month since then when the quota was reached was June 2015. The cap has not yet been hit for any month in 2016. Yet during this period hundreds of thousands of non-EU citizens have migrated to the UK. You have the paradox of the route designed for economic migrants not being fully utilised, yet at the same time there are huge numbers of migrants.

    The reality is that these other migrants are coming here lawfully by other routes; routes which if they were closed would cause consternation amongst those members of the public whose views are not dominated by immigration to the exclusion of all other political issues.

    Mr & Mrs Middle-Class would not tolerate the idea that if their daughter married an American, their son in law could not live here; Mr Old-Soldier would not be happy if the Commonwealth veteran who served in the British Army and was wounded in Afghanistan could not retire here.

    If one moves on to illegal immigration, the vast majority of illegal immigrants, over 90%, are over-stayers, not people in the back of a lorry. There are 200,000 Chinese tourists in the UK and about 90,000 Chinese students a year. We don't know the nationality of illegal immigrants but if we said, say 2.5% of Chinese visitors and students overstayed their visas, that would 7,250 a year. In the great balance of things the benefit the 97.5% of the law abiding Chinese put into the British economy will vastly exceed what the 2.5% of illegals take out of the British economy (as by definition they will be low service users because they are living below the radar). You could run government policy around the 2.5% but you will be imposing a shattering blow on the economy.

    The Referendum temporarily empowered a lot of people with marginal connection to the economy who are concerned about immigration to the exclusion of virtually everything else. They have had their tantrum and power has passed back to the grown-ups. The position will not be the same as it was before, and the grown ups will have more regard to the interests of those who threw their toys out of their prams, but the economic dilemmas around immigration have not gone away, and there are other dilemmas to follow.

    The security services are yet to say the unsayable; that not regularising the position of illegal Muslim immigrants is a national security threat. The current generation of home-grown Muslim terrorists are the descendants of legal immigrants and are "on the radar". What happens when we have a generation of radicalised youths who are the children of folk living "off the radar"? What happens when we try and keep tabs on the radicalisation of folk who are hiding for their parents' immigration not national security reasons?
    Brexit was unambiguous an decisive on two points only. Leaving the EU and stopping free movement of labour.

    If May doesn't deliver on both these things then she is finished.

    And if she is finished you could make an argument to say that the country will become ungovernable. We will all go down the plug hole.

    So it is a big big deal. Remainers need to get this into their heads. The days of hoovering up dirt cheap labour from eastern Europe are over.

    Immigration is going to have to be controlled.
    Online

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Yes! Pi** off EU Imperialism
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    19
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Yes! Pi** off EU Imperialism
    That's your most sophisticated argument yet. You should frame it and show other people. Be proud.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I think that if they don't want Brussels telling them what to do, it would make more sense to just leave the EU.

    Isn't the whole point of joining the EU giving up a lot of local power to Brussels? Seems like they may not have understood what they were joining.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    I think that if they don't want Brussels telling them what to do, it would make more sense to just leave the EU.

    Isn't the whole point of joining the EU giving up a lot of local power to Brussels? Seems like they may not have understood what they were joining.
    They should leave and I suspect eventually will.

    The refugee crisis, the Euro crisis, the Brexit crisis...

    Too many crises, not enough faith or trust in what the EU is supposed to be for. Belief in it. Sacrifices made for the common European good.

    There is no common European good. Putting some flags on a blue star doesn't create a nation.

    Hungary is a nation. The UK is a nation, and will remain one even if Scotland pi$$es off.

    Europe is just a failed political and economic project.

    With a ludicrously out of touch political elite trying to keep the peasants with the pitchforks from breaking down the doors and burning the place down.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Opinion)

    Not true, it is very very easy to stop if a government wishes, especially if the nation is surrounded by water.
    Which Hungary, like most countries, is not. Even the UK has a land border with the Republic of Ireland, and likely Scotland too soon.

    It's not easy. People will find ways to cross. Sure, you can have walls and inspections and constant border police if you want, but apart from it being incredibly expensive and making you look like a totalitarian police state, it still fails in the long run, hence why East Germany no longer exists.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brussels sprouts
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.