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Labour Owen Smith offers 2nd Ref for Remainers watch

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  • View Poll Results: Will you vote for Owen Smith to get a 2nd Referendum on the EU?
    Yes - Labour Supporter
    3
    7.89%
    Yes - Non Labour / support other party
    5
    13.16%
    No - Labour Supporter
    13
    34.21%
    No - Non Labour / support other party
    17
    44.74%

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    (Original post by paul514)
    A deal doesn't need to be ratified by the public, it wasn't the terms of the original vote. This is simply a case of so how can we get the right answer by asking the question again.

    You can dislike something if you want but there is a democratic mandate to leave the European Union what ever the terms are.


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    The original vote didn't rule it out either. And surely the people should get a say on what kind of deal we get, given the leave vote was split between those who want to leave the common market and those who don't, and between those who want to get rid of freedom of movement and those who want to keep it, as well as along other lines.

    Also people have a democratic right to protest, lobby and argue for something, even after they have lost the case, this has been the case for centuries, this is quite simply a cornerstone of British society I would argue, and Ian Hislop put the case forward perectly on Question Time.

    If it makes you feel any better I agreed article 50 should be triggered asap after the vote, despite voting for and campaigning for remain.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    If it makes you feel any better I agreed article 50 should be triggered asap after the vote, despite voting for and campaigning for remain.
    I wholeheartedly agree, except your last para:

    Article 50 should not be triggered until we know EXACTLY what the implications are. For example, there is some uncertainty as to whether or not the country pressing the "go" button can stop the process and remain in the EU. Understanding that will significantly inform the negotiation strategy.

    http://theconversation.com/once-the-...urn-back-61727
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    As usual you have all grossly misunderstood a policy idea from the Labour Party due to the way it has been spun in the rabid pro-Brexit, anti-Labour social conservative press.

    Owen Smith has suggested, similar to what I have suggested here in weeks past, a referendum on whether to accept the terms of any Brexit treaty negotiated by the government.

    He should therefore be the choice candidate for all those conspiracy nutters who believe Theresa May is a cultural Marxist European superstate shill who will give us a Brexit in name only where we keep freedom of movement.

    Smith is actually offering the hardcore Brexit headbangers their dearest dream: the possibility of being as contrarian and obstinately xenophobic as possible about the deal, refusing to accept any compromise, and turning Britain into a backwater Juche state.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    If it makes you feel any better I agreed article 50 should be triggered asap after the vote, despite voting for and campaigning for remain.
    But you, being a sensible person, probably assumed some sort of plan or commitment had been made on the Leave side. Since it turns out that they were just doing it for their careers and turned tail in shock and fear once they won, surely we as a country should take some time to decide exactly what sort of Brexit we want over coming months before triggering Article 50, possibly now those months which were given over to the original Tory leadership timetable.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    But you, being a sensible person, probably assumed some sort of plan or commitment had been made on the Leave side. Since it turns out that they were just doing it for their careers and turned tail in shock and fear once they won, surely we as a country should take some time to decide exactly what sort of Brexit we want over coming months before triggering Article 50, possibly now those months which were given over to the original Tory leadership timetable.
    I would rather they got on with it, it's clear the leave side don't and can't agree on a way forward, the EU don't want to talk to us till we trigger it, once this new cabinet has met a few times I would like something to happen rather than this limbo, since remainers want it to not happen, and leavers are bitterly divided on what they want, I don't see an agreement, plan or commitment being reached that will satisfy everyone who voted leave, we might as well see what is even on the table. Although tbf I am also incredibly fed up with this state of unknowing as no one agrees, so I might be being more hasty in complaint than I want them to be in reality.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    I would rather they got on with it, it's clear the leave side don't and can't agree on a way forward, the EU don't want to talk to us till we trigger it, once this new cabinet has met a few times I would like something to happen rather than this limbo, since remainers want it to not happen, and leavers are bitterly divided on what they want, I don't see an agreement, plan or commitment being reached that will satisfy everyone who voted leave, we might as well see what is even on the table. Although tbf I am also incredibly fed up with this state of unknowing as no one agrees, so I might be being more hasty in complaint than I want them to be in reality.
    That's exactly why I want a general election, or an Owen Smith referendum, so all options can be put in some detail to the public so there is a democratic mandate to do whatever we end up doing.

    The only reason to fear uncertainty is the immediate market reaction. From democracy's point of view the longer we spend wrangling over it the better. So I interpret your distaste for uncertainty as a reference to the markets.

    But because of the Tory leadership two months of doing nothing had been priced in and to an extent (increased extent with May now in place) Article 50 activation at the end of the year also priced in. I see nothing wrong with using the time we've already banked to have a proper discussion about it.

    That is unless we/the markets are certain that May's government will lead us into an EEA exit where we keep our banking passport and full free market access. I am far from certain of that as the Tory party seems to be drifting slowly back towards the ruinous Switzerland model.

    The trade-off now for Remainers as I see it is: either we trust May to deliver an EEA exit and lock that in, or we don't trust her and therefore our best hope is to have another referendum on the terms of Brexit - with a full Remain option back on the ballot paper.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    That's exactly why I want a general election, or an Owen Smith referendum, so all options can be put in some detail to the public so there is a democratic mandate to do whatever we end up doing.

    The only reason to fear uncertainty is the immediate market reaction. From democracy's point of view the longer we spend wrangling over it the better. So I interpret your distaste for uncertainty as a reference to the markets.

    But because of the Tory leadership two months of doing nothing had been priced in and to an extent (increased extent with May now in place) Article 50 activation at the end of the year also priced in. I see nothing wrong with using the time we've already banked to have a proper discussion about it.

    That is unless we/the markets are certain that May's government will lead us into an EEA exit where we keep our banking passport and full free market access. I am far from certain of that as the Tory party seems to be drifting slowly back towards the ruinous Switzerland model.

    The trade-off now for Remainers as I see it is: either we trust May to deliver an EEA exit and lock that in, or we don't trust her and therefore our best hope is to have another referendum on the terms of Brexit - with a full Remain option back on the ballot paper.
    I don't disagree with such a referendum. And as for uncertainty, it has nothing to do with the markets, but the kind of deal we will get, no one in the leave camp wants the same deal, and I just want to know what Europe is willing to give us, and what kind of deal it looks like we will end up with.
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    Theresa May must trigger article 50 NOW! The only way to prevent a possible Socialist government by default.
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    Theresa May must trigger article 50 NOW! The only way to prevent a possible Socialist government by default.
    No.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...4&postcount=22
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    The rules seem pretty clear, Britain would be subject to a vote by EU member states. The mendacity of Bremainers should not be a reason to hold our democratic system to ransom.
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    The rules seem pretty clear, Britain would be subject to a vote by EU member states. The mendacity of Bremainers should not be a reason to hold our democratic system to ransom.
    In the ideal world, people, get a second opinion (at least) if the decision is very important. The BREXIT: people do not want a second opinion and one must begin to wonder if they actually have a secret death wish
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    In the ideal world, people, get a second opinion (at least) if the decision is very important. The BREXIT: people do not want a second opinion and one must begin to wonder if they actually have a secret death wish
    If it was up to people like you there would be no referendums in the first place since you think the public are too stupid to decide for themselves.
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    The rules seem pretty clear, Britain would be subject to a vote by EU member states. The mendacity of Bremainers should not be a reason to hold our democratic system to ransom.
    Not according to legal opinion to the House of Lords, and from others too (if you bothered to follow my link).

    Including...
    Derrick Wyatt QC, Emeritus Professor of Law, Oxford:
    There is nothing in the wording to say that you cannot. It is in accord with the general aims of the Treaties that people stay in rather than rush out of the exit door. There is also the specific provision in Article 50 to the effect that, if a State withdraws, it has to apply to rejoin de novo. (as of new) That only applies once you have left. If you could not change your mind after a year of thinking about it, but before you had withdrawn, you would then have to wait another year, withdraw and then apply to join again. That just does not make sense. Analysis of the text suggests that you are entitled to change your mind.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Not according to legal opinion to the House of Lords, and from others too (if you bothered to follow my link).

    Including...
    Derrick Wyatt QC, Emeritus Professor of Law, Oxford:
    I am sure you can find plenty of 'Petty fogging lawyers' who will try to find a way past the rules, but that is no reason to not trigger article 50, let's face it, the Bremainers cannot play by the rules that they themselves made, Cameron and his cronies wanted a remain vote, well he lost, get over it and work towards a better future, a Conservative future.
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    I am sure you can find plenty of 'Petty fogging lawyers' who will try to find a way past the rules, but that is no reason to not trigger article 50, let's face it, the Bremainers cannot play by the rules that they themselves made, Cameron and his cronies wanted a remain vote, well he lost, get over it and work towards a better future, a Conservative future.
    Oh yes of course, experts, no need for them is there...
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Oh yes of course, experts, no need for them is there...
    An expert with an agenda is totally useless. I am sure there will be plenty within the EU who will bend over backwards to help Britain remain, so what objection have you against triggering article 50, apart from the obvious one that you are a Bremainer.
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    An expert with an agenda is totally useless. I am sure there will be plenty within the EU who will bend over backwards to help Britain remain, so what objection have you against triggering article 50, apart from the obvious one that you are a Bremainer.
    You shouldn't trigger it if you don't understand the implications.

    e.g. if, let's say, the UK CAN'T stop A50 once triggered and is forced out after 2 years, then it could end up without any deals at all and would have no fall back (except WTO, etc).
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    (Original post by jneill)
    You shouldn't trigger it if you don't understand the implications.

    e.g. if, let's say, the UK CAN'T stop A50 once triggered and is forced out after 2 years, then it could end up without any deals at all and would have no fall back (except WTO, etc).
    What you are totally missing is Britain voted to come out, not stay in. Where oh where is the honesty here, you are just using confirmation bias to plea bargain your own preference.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    If elected leader Owen Smith will try and subvert democracy and get a 2nd referendum for the people of the UK.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-labour-leader
    That COULD win Labour an election (only chance) if that's in his manifesto should he be leader during the next general election?

    Just read it, it's not a new remain but new brexit EU deal.....POINTLESS
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    What you are totally missing is Britain voted to come out, not stay in. Where oh where is the honesty here, you are just using confirmation bias to plea bargain your own preference.
    37.4% voted to Leave, but that's not the point now.

    The point is to ensure UK gets the best deal it can. If someone activates A50 without fully understanding the implications then they are, frankly, an idiot.


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