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If multiculturalism has failed, it's because of the white British majority. Watch

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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    I think that most indigenous people of a country would want other cultures to at least attempt to assimilate into their own if said cultures are openly misogynistic and homophobic.
    The majority try too, but the demands seem unrealistic and uncompromising. There is also an obvious non-attempt to learn about these people. As I said, multiculturalism isn't a one-way street.
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    (Original post by IronicalMan)
    Erm, we never got a say if we wanted it or not...
    You didn't, but your parents and grandparents probably did. Certainly seemed fine when we were encouraging migrant doctors (predominantly south east asian) to come here in droves in the 60's and 70's. But nobody wants the culture they come with, it's all about us graciously providing them entrance into this country, forgetting what they've done for us. Like I said, without these people the UK wouldn't be what it is economically.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    The majority try too, but the demands seem unrealistic and uncompromising. There is also an obvious non-attempt to learn about these people. As I said, multiculturalism isn't a one-way street.
    I don't think you can justifiably call being asked to learn the native language and abide by the local culture as unreasonable, nor unrealistic.

    And you're missing the point - we aren't asking immigrants to come here so that we may 'learn' about their culture. If you want to do that, there are plenty of resources on the Internet. Immigrants, economic migrants that is, are here for one purpose: to work. We need immigration to fill jobs that the native population has a skills-shortage in, and in return they get paid a salary that is likely far higher than the same job would pay in their own country, and get to live free from persecution or government corruption, or whatever problems plague their own nation in many cases. I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to respective the culture of the country where they are living and working.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    It struck me the other the day that the failure of multiculturalism - which, I see as the acceptance of different cultures, not just tolerating them - was/has been thoroughly rejected by the indigenous white majority from the very beginning. When I hear white Britons talk about their ideal view of multiculturalism, it often isn't multiculturalism, in fact, its assimilation. The reason I say this is for two reasons:1) The white indigenous majority often cite migrants not learning English and accepting traditionally British values as their main reason for disliking multiculturalism. But they expect migrants to come here and immediately take steps to learn English and expect them to speak English in public. Many white indigenous British people that I've spoken to lack any empathy when it comes to migrants. They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.
    As immigration to Western countries is largely a buyer's market, British people think we should allow entry only to those who can offer the most, which includes working hard and speaking English. What's wrong with this? If you are an employer who can pick candidates and will offer the successful one pay and progression, why shouldn't you be able to require them to fulfil certain things?

    2) Indigenous white British people also assume that multiculturalism is a one-way street. They want migrants to learn English but the vast majority of indigenous British people are monoglots. There is the assumption that they must learn everything from us, but us nothing from them. To put it simply we reek of arrogance. That does not mean we must accept arcane practices from their regions (I concede, many of cultures have values I'd never accept), but perhaps we should try to embrace the bits of their culture that are enriching. Learn about their history, culture and their lives before Britain, especially if they come from Commonwealth countries (that essentially propped our economy up for centuries). In my view, there is this undeniable attitude in the UK that we give these people more than they give us, but in reality, our NHS and in fact, our workforce would collapse without them.
    Title is provocative, but from my experiences it's genuinely the truth. What do you guys think?
    I have not seen this in practice. The UK goes out of its way to promote other cultures through food, media, art, architecture, etc., while maintaining the traditions and customs that give the UK its identity.

    The political concept, "multiculturalism", has failed because of how it has been executed. In terms of promoting the most beneficial and optimum parts of foreign cultures, Britain is a leader in this respect. What British people don't want to do is promote or embrace all parts of foreign cultures or have communities living separately rather than one overarching, culturally diverse community which we are all part of.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    The last census was 88% for the UK but the point remains.

    Multiculturalism for a lot of places is just the town having a curry house or a Chinese.
    In some cities it's more like over 90% white British
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    (Original post by SirMilkSheikh)
    Are you looking at the 1991 census? If so you are 25 years late. England is 76/77% white British.
    Ignoring the capital London in most some cities it's more like over 90% white British
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    (Original post by Jee1)
    In some cities it's more like over 90% white British
    This is why I laugh at the people who say we've been taken over or invaded while they're sat there eating a ****in kebab.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.
    Personally if I was dropped in The Channel, the first thing I'd do is swim very quickly towards the south coast of Britain, I wouldn't float around and I definitely wouldn't try to found a community there.

    That's obv me being silly but honestly I think that if I migrated to any country in the world I would learn the language before and after migrating to that country, trying to perfect that language and I'd use that language when speaking to/being around the locals there out of respect since I have joined their community. I am pro-migration but I do expect every immigrant to Britain to learn our language immediately because I know wholeheartedly I'd do the same if I migrated to their community of origin.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    It struck me the other the day that the failure of multiculturalism - which, I see as the acceptance of different cultures, not just tolerating them - was/has been thoroughly rejected by the indigenous white majority from the very beginning. When I hear white Britons talk about their ideal view of multiculturalism, it often isn't multiculturalism, in fact, its assimilation. The reason I say this is for two reasons:

    1) The white indigenous majority often cite migrants not learning English and accepting traditionally British values as their main reason for disliking multiculturalism. But they expect migrants to come here and immediately take steps to learn English and expect them to speak English in public. Many white indigenous British people that I've spoken to lack any empathy when it comes to migrants. They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.

    2) Indigenous white British people also assume that multiculturalism is a one-way street. They want migrants to learn English but the vast majority of indigenous British people are monoglots. There is the assumption that they must learn everything from us, but us nothing from them. To put it simply we reek of arrogance. That does not mean we must accept arcane practices from their regions (I concede, many of cultures have values I'd never accept), but perhaps we should try to embrace the bits of their culture that are enriching. Learn about their history, culture and their lives before Britain, especially if they come from Commonwealth countries (that essentially propped our economy up for centuries). In my view, there is this undeniable attitude in the UK that we give these people more than they give us, but in reality, our NHS and in fact, our workforce would collapse without them.

    Title is provocative, but from my experiences it's genuinely the truth. What do you guys think?
    I completely disagree with that statement. Britain embraces multiculturalism more than many other world nations. Apart from Germany how many other countries are there which support it's migrants and attempt to integrate them into our society(...you won't find many).

    Japan, regarded as one of the most peaceful nations in the world but look at their treatment on asylum seekers( see the link below). They are unfairly treated and inhumanely kept like prisoners.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36474444

    And there is nothing wrong to tell migrants to learn English it is only for their benefit. If they struggled with the language barrier they will find it very difficult to find jobs and work. The British people don't force this upon them but only encourage them to learn English.

    Britain also embraces the different cultures by allowing them to establish religious institutions such as Mosques and Temples around the country. This is slightly more difficult to achieve in other western nations like Germany(coming from a proud German).

    Please don't come to crude accusation just because a small cohort of people are making negative comments on different cultures. In addition, it is important to say that it is never possible to be 100% multicultural, this is because any culture whether British or Indian or any other will try to try to protect its integrity. So it is a natural response. You may mark Britain negatively on it's multicultural status but wait till the BRIC nations become developed economies and see their real treatment of immigrants(it'll be similar or worse).
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    Lol why on earth should British people living in their own country have to learn Punjabi? This country is ridiculously tolerant and bends over backwards for you, the least you could do is learn the language.

    Multiculturalism is essentially an imposition. British people never really consented to it or wanted it, contrary to what some believe no western country has ever "voted for immigration", the mainstream on the left and right both decided on it, and the fascist PC establishment have spent decades controlling the social narrative so any criticism is "racist". Only now are political alternatives starting to form.

    Really the essence of multiculturalism, diversity etc has always been "less white people = good". Look at how parts of the U.K. that are 90% Pakistani are celebrated as "diverse" lol. Too many white people on a tv show = problem. Too many white people in a school = problem. Too many white people in a country = a problem that needs to be addressed.

    It's not white British men that are sex trafficking and raping young south Asian girls, it's not white Europeans committing terrorist attacks all across Europe against non-whites. You are the the foreigners and you are the ones antagonising attacking, and brutalising us, and getting away with it because the native population have been psychologically beaten into submission and taught to hate themselves. But I see things are starting to change.
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    (Original post by Crassy)
    Lol why on earth should British people living in their own country have to learn Punjabi? This country is ridiculously tolerant and bends over backwards for you, the least you could do is learn the language.

    Multiculturalism is essentially an imposition. British people never really consented to it or wanted it, contrary to what some believe no western country has ever "voted for immigration", the mainstream on the left and right both decided on it, and the fascist PC establishment have spent decades controlling the social narrative so any criticism is "racist". Only now are political alternatives starting to form.

    Really the essence of multiculturalism, diversity etc has always been "less white people = good". Look at how parts of the U.K. that are 90% Pakistani are celebrated as "diverse" lol. Too many white people on a tv show = problem. Too many white people in a school = problem.

    It's not white British men that are sex trafficking and raping young south Asian girls, it's not white Europeans committing terrorist attacks all across Europe against non-whites. You are the the foreigners and you are the ones antagonising attacking, and brutalising us, and getting away with it because the native population have been psychologically beaten into submission and taught to hate themselves. But I see things are starting to change.
    Well mass immigration has now stopped any non-EU people coming here are likely to be international students
    To immigrate to the UK now is so tough and if you are foreign born living in the UK you have to earn 35k a year to stay here if you don't earn that then you will be deported
    This is in contrast to when Blair was in power as he let in anyone and everyone who set foot in the UK
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    (Original post by Jee1)
    Well mass immigration has now stopped any non-EU people coming here are likely to be international students
    To immigrate to the UK now is so tough and if you are foreign born living in the UK you have to earn 35k a year to stay here if you don't earn that then you will be deported
    This is in contrast to when Blair was in power as he let in anyone and everyone who set foot in the UK
    Mass migration is undesirable for any nation and it places a heavy burden especially on the UK economy. We must first be in an economically stable situation before even thinking about supporting mass immigration and in this current moment is about 250,000 per annum. That is nearly the size of Leicester every year and quite unsustainable. By placing a control on immigration is not a sign against multiculturalism.
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    * "mass immigration"
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    (Original post by JRKinder)
    I don't think you can justifiably call being asked to learn the native language and abide by the local culture as unreasonable, nor unrealistic.

    And you're missing the point - we aren't asking immigrants to come here so that we may 'learn' about their culture. If you want to do that, there are plenty of resources on the Internet. Immigrants, economic migrants that is, are here for one purpose: to work. We need immigration to fill jobs that the native population has a skills-shortage in, and in return they get paid a salary that is likely far higher than the same job would pay in their own country, and get to live free from persecution or government corruption, or whatever problems plague their own nation in many cases. I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to respective the culture of the country where they are living and working.
    It's unreasonable to expect people to come here and learn the language without the necessary support. What incentive do they have to come here and learn the language? They're under-appreciated whether they do or don't. It's also wholly unreasonable to expect people to abandon a culture they've grown up in for an alien one. When I say culture, I mean harmless traditions not radical beliefs that are largely viewed as immoral.

    Right, but it's a by-product. A complete rejection of multiculturalism is an indirect way of telling people that they can either assimilate or stay here until they're no longer needed. The way you're phrasing it is incredibly telling of the way you view 'economic migrants'. Sure, they're here to work, and we pay them relatively well for that work, but socially they're ostracised if they refuse to abandon their culture despite them - as a collective - filling these incredibly important gaps. They're unappreciated. We must realise that we need these people as much as they need us; it's an equally mutually benefitting relationship.
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    (Original post by saran23)
    I completely disagree with that statement.
    (Original post by Crassy)
    Lol why on earth should British people living in their own country have to learn Punjabi?
    Again, your comments are exactly what I have described in my post. It's a mutually benefitting relationship. Migrant workforces have filled important gaps in the economy for decades on end, and yet we treat them as if they've come here only because of our benevolence. It's a warped sense of patriotism that just doesn't reflect the both points of view. My point about the languages was not that every Brit has to learn one of their languages, it's that our arrogance is incredible. We expect them to learn a relatively difficult language upon landing here, whilst many of indigenous Brits can barely speak a second language. The Asians you mention in your posts are the same ones who are the first point of contact when you have a medical emergency. They look after you and your family, and have since they came here in the 1970's. Their many corner shops feed and contribute to our economy. And yet, you think they're just here because it's for "diversity".

    Japan have very strict laws on immigration and don't like foreigners of any kind, but their workforce is incredibly homogenous. Ours isn't. We are a country that has always had it's hand in other countries pockets, Japan hasn't. Don't get me wrong though, Brits in general tolerate ethnic minorities, but like I mentioned there is a difference between tolerance and multiculturalism - which I view as the acceptance of different cultures, rather than assimilation.
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    Multiculturalism hasn't failed, its just some big-mouthed xenophobes who want to blame our problems on foreign sources, are constantly claiming that it has. And I suppose the average person is starting to get used to racism and xenophobia as a part of our daily routines.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    It's unreasonable to expect people to come here and learn the language without the necessary support. What incentive do they have to come here and learn the language? They're under-appreciated whether they do or don't. It's also wholly unreasonable to expect people to abandon a culture they've grown up in for an alien one. When I say culture, I mean harmless traditions not radical beliefs that are largely viewed as immoral.

    Right, but it's a by-product. A complete rejection of multiculturalism is an indirect way of telling people that they can either assimilate or stay here until they're no longer needed. The way you're phrasing it is incredibly telling of the way you view 'economic migrants'. Sure, they're here to work, and we pay them relatively well for that work, but socially they're ostracised if they refuse to abandon their culture despite them - as a collective - filling these incredibly important gaps. They're unappreciated. We must realise that we need these people as much as they need us; it's an equally mutually benefitting relationship.
    It's not unreasonable, they have the incentive of a well-paid job in a politically stable state. I'm already beginning to learn French and German in preparation for a potential future career in finance in light of the Brexit vote, and do I expect France or Germany to subsidise my language tuition? Of course not! If I don't have the necessary skills, then someone else will fill the vacancy. That's how life works and it is fully reasonable to expect that. And if you want to live in a different society I fail to see how it's in any way unreasonable to be expected to adhere to their culture, in fact here in Britain people are very free to not participate - imagine if a woman refused to cover her hair in Saudi Arabia! Of course there is no harm in practising cultural traditions and the like, but when enough people of that culture gather they begin to ask for special treatment, exemptions and law changes etc, and that's when a problem arises. An example of which is that ridiculous petition to make Eid a national holiday, and pass laws to prevent people from insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

    And I think my stance on economic migrants roots back to this issue. Principally, they're here to work. If they want to practise their cultural traditions whilst doing this, without demanding law changes or preferential treatment, that is absolutely fine. But the native population has no obligation whatsoever to learn about or appreciate such practises. Granted, it's fortunate that they are willing to perform that job, and people certainly should appreciate that they're willing to work (even if they are economically well-compensated), but demanding cultural change is a completely different beast. For the record, I'm very much pro-European migration, pro-English speaking nation migration (so USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), because all of these countries are culturally very similar and thus there is limited opportunity for cultural clashes. Immigrants from elsewhere, on the other hand, often tend to demand that their hosts bend over backwards to accomodate them, which is just wrong.
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    (Original post by JRKinder)
    It's not unreasonable, they have the incentive of a well-paid job in a politically stable state. I'm already beginning to learn French and German in preparation for a potential future career in finance in light of the Brexit vote, and do I expect France or Germany to subsidise my language tuition? Of course not! If I don't have the necessary skills, then someone else will fill the vacancy. That's how life works and it is fully reasonable to expect that. And if you want to live in a different society I fail to see how it's in any way unreasonable to be expected to adhere to their culture, in fact here in Britain people are very free to not participate - imagine if a woman refused to cover her hair in Saudi Arabia! Of course there is no harm in practising cultural traditions and the like, but when enough people of that culture gather they begin to ask for special treatment, exemptions and law changes etc, and that's when a problem arises. An example of which is that ridiculous petition to make Eid a national holiday, and pass laws to prevent people from insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

    And I think my stance on economic migrants roots back to this issue. Principally, they're here to work. If they want to practise their cultural traditions whilst doing this, without demanding law changes or preferential treatment, that is absolutely fine. But the native population has no obligation whatsoever to learn about or appreciate such practises. Granted, it's fortunate that they are willing to perform that job, and people certainly should appreciate that they're willing to work (even if they are economically well-compensated), but demanding cultural change is a completely different beast. For the record, I'm very much pro-European migration, pro-English speaking nation migration (so USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), because all of these countries are culturally very similar and thus there is limited opportunity for cultural clashes. Immigrants from elsewhere, on the other hand, often tend to demand that their hosts bend over backwards to accomodate them, which is just wrong.
    It is unreasonable, considering the vast majority of jobs that European migrants and other economic migrants that the media has been focusing on, apply for are low-skilled. There is absolutely no reason for them to learn English; it won't make them perform low-skilled jobs better, nor does it make much sense for an employer to look for an English-speaking migrant to do a job that doesn't require that skill. Your position is a very particular one and far removed from anything particular economic migrants experience. As I said before, them simply having a job doesn't require them to learn English, nor is it reasonable to expect them to go out of their way to learn it when they don't need too. This is all besides the point though, the public in my opinion, want migrants to speak English for social reasons, not for economic reasons. They don't want them to speak English for the migrants' benefit; we simply want to hear people speaking English for the sake of it, which in my opinion is entirely unreasonable to expect when there is no social benefit for them doing so. There is going to be distaste regardless.

    I think we agree. My original point was, if multiculturalism is failing it's because of an unwillingness of the British majority to embrace or learn about another culture. Whilst I personally think that multiculturalism is a potentially great social system, I'm not arguing that by default it's the moral superior. It's perfectly fine for the British public not to want multiculturalism, and to merely tolerate other communities practising their cultures. I'm simply stating that multiculturalism is failing because of white, indigenous British people.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    Again, your comments are exactly what I have described in my post. It's a mutually benefitting relationship. Migrant workforces have filled important gaps in the economy for decades on end, and yet we treat them as if they've come here only because of our benevolence. It's a warped sense of patriotism that just doesn't reflect the both points of view. My point about the languages was not that every Brit has to learn one of their languages, it's that our arrogance is incredible. We expect them to learn a relatively difficult language upon landing here, whilst many of indigenous Brits can barely speak a second language. The Asians you mention in your posts are the same ones who are the first point of contact when you have a medical emergency. They look after you and your family, and have since they came here in the 1970's. Their many corner shops feed and contribute to our economy. And yet, you think they're just here because it's for "diversity".

    Japan have very strict laws on immigration and don't like foreigners of any kind, but their workforce is incredibly homogenous. Ours isn't. We are a country that has always had it's hand in other countries pockets, Japan hasn't. Don't get me wrong though, Brits in general tolerate ethnic minorities, but like I mentioned there is a difference between tolerance and multiculturalism - which I view as the acceptance of different cultures, rather than assimilation.
    But why must Japan have strict laws on immigration? why can't they accept asylum seekers when they are in an economically stable position, where there is intolerance multiculturalism can not flourish. Please don't treat them as two separate entities as they are not but are two things which behave symbiotically. The reason for comparing Britain to other nations is to give you an idea of how open Britain is to immigrants and asylum seekers.

    Yes, I definitely agree that immigrants have contributed a lot to our economy but we have taken good care of them as well. Most Immigrants are beneficiaries. They do get access to the welfare system and they do too use the NHS.

    Finally may I ask why you are using the term "indigenous", the so called "native" British people themselves originate from different backgrounds ranging from the Saxons, to the Danes and also to the Normans.
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    (Original post by Akamega)
    You didn't, but your parents and grandparents probably did. Certainly seemed fine when we were encouraging migrant doctors (predominantly south east asian) to come here in droves in the 60's and 70's. But nobody wants the culture they come with, it's all about us graciously providing them entrance into this country, forgetting what they've done for us. Like I said, without these people the UK wouldn't be what it is economically.
    I think you'll find multiculturalism wasn't encouraged or voted for, but integration. It's only these days they bang on about multiculturalism and flood the country with hundreds of thousands. You're talking about a very small proportion of immigrants that we actually need, most we do not.... And we only need them because we won't pay doctors and nurses more.
 
 
 
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