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    (Original post by Rather_Cynical)
    I think we're discussing the limits of science here - quantifying suffering and happiness to develop moral principles is really hard. Is it better to breed insects for our food-based needs, comparatively speaking? If the ideal situation of no death at all is unattainable, I certainly view it as one of the better options.
    I'd agree that we shouldn't ban meat and dairy consumption - as you say, it would create a backlash. I'd rather the government put a tax on meat and dairy consumption, and did not promote insect meat. It can be hard to quantify happiness and suffering on a marginal level, but the sheer number of insects makes even a small probability of them being able to suffer have massive consequences.

    Thus, even if we can't precisely quantify happiness and suffering, we can often know that alternatives are better. A plant-based diet is a better alternative to insect farming as well as factory-farming; escaping extreme poverty is better than being in extreme poverty; being satisfied with life is better than being depressed; and so on.
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    Obviously no. Sod the granola chomping, tree hugging hippies who disagree they're a tiny minority with flawed logic, granted the way animals destined for slaughter are treated badly in some instnces but biologically our bodies are designed as omnivores [probably spelt wrong, soz.] and thus I reserve my god given right to lamb chops and ribeye steak!
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    I like the thought that an animal had died so that I can have a burger. I don't give a **** if the hippies want a tax, bring it on. I'll just raise my own chickens, so I can avoid this tax and also have the pleasure of ending their lives myself.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I'd do things like fore meat products to have images of the conditions the animals live in and the slaughter process.

    Like how cigarettes have to have picture of cancerous lungs etc.
    Never heard anyone suggest this before but it sounds like it could be a good idea. With the prepacked meat you get in supermarkets its so easy not to think about the animal it's come from, process of slaughter, conditions animals are kept in etc. If pictures like this were included on meat packaging then people would have to make a conscious decision whether they wanted to support an industry which is responsible for so much suffering.
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    (Original post by THE EPIC Panda)
    I like the thought that an animal had died so that I can have a burger. I don't give a **** if the hippies want a tax, bring it on. I'll just raise my own chickens, so I can avoid this tax and also have the pleasure of ending their lives myself.
    How are you going to raise your own chickens?
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    (Original post by Napp)
    Obviously no. Sod the granola chomping, tree hugging hippies who disagree they're a tiny minority with flawed logic, granted the way animals destined for slaughter are treated badly in some instnces but biologically our bodies are designed as omnivores [probably spelt wrong, soz.] and thus I reserve my god given right to lamb chops and ribeye steak!
    Nice generalizations! Some instances? Have you seen factory farms, in which animals have constantly miserable lives, and which account for the majority of meat sold in the UK? (See here, here, here and here, for instance). Did you read the study I cited earlier about the slaughter process going wrong in a significant proportion of cases?

    Being omnivores means that we can choose to eat some meat, or choose to eat no meat. Logic dictates that just because we can eat meat, it doesn't mean we should do. Appealing to a supernatural being to justify what you like to eat strikes me as rather convenient.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    Nice generalizations! Some instances? Have you seen factory farms, in which animals have constantly miserable lives, and which account for the majority of meat sold in the UK? (See here, here, here and here, for instance). Did you read the study I cited earlier about the slaughter process going wrong in a significant proportion of cases?

    Being omnivores means that we can choose to eat some meat, or choose to eat no meat. Logic dictates that just because we can eat meat, it doesn't mean we should do. Appealing to a supernatural being to justify what you like to eat strikes me as rather convenient.
    Well its easier than going into detail on each instance which would fill a library.

    Well thats what we get for having a large population, its reprehensible yes but economically and logistically it makes perfect sense im afraid. I dont doubt that it does but then again think of how it would happen without human interference, sheep would be savaged by wolves, stoats and the like would rip chickens to pieces, lions rip out animals throats and even if we factor in humans what did we do before industrialized freezing works? spears, arrows, hearding animals off of cliffs the list goes on and on. What happens is, s i said, terrible but generally speaking in the grand scheme of things it is required. I dont dispute the point on their welfare such as battery faarms of course.

    Being Omnivores indeed means we can choose but biologically speaking we are designed to have meat suplement our diets. the fact we've evolved to happily choose isnt really a consideration.. Logic also dictates it provides essential parts of our dietand whilst said nutrition can be found in other items it is shall we say less practicle?
    I should point our thats just a turn of phrase, as it were, the 'god given right' bit.
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    Honestly if taxes were imposed on Meat products I would continue to eat meat. It's a large part of my diet and I consider meat my favourite food. Humans are omnivorous and should eat both meat and vegetables, people need to stop thinking that meat is bad, it's ****ing great! I do not agree with the warehouse style battery farming type this is why I buy organic or from a source I know farms and harvests meat correctly.

    If a tax was imposed and the prices got too high id' probably consider keeping pigs and maybe a cow or two (I live in the country) and make and smoke my own bacon and beef. I'd have to figure out how to keep a steady supply but it'd be quite fulfilling to make my own bacon.
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    Now this is coming from a view that Vegetarianism is right and far better. Where growing crops to feed people is not easy and does take a lot of land and labor. some think that tofu is the way to go as a substitute but that causes massive land problems and causes a lot of problems for the soil and so does farming standard crops.


    Another point is that getting all your nutrients, yes you can take tons of tablets and strange supplements but that costs money and is not very practical.

    Another is taste, why give up the wonderful foods that meat can make 1000's of dishes and the world will lose massive amounts of culture with food being a massive part of every country.

    and about cruelty for chicken and cows and all farm animals, Some people do not care and some think things should get better for animals but lets say we no longer eat meat. where do the cows go? sure some live but many are useless and will die the same with many other animals
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    (Original post by Alesha1991)
    Never heard anyone suggest this before but it sounds like it could be a good idea. With the prepacked meat you get in supermarkets its so easy not to think about the animal it's come from, process of slaughter, conditions animals are kept in etc. If pictures like this were included on meat packaging then people would have to make a conscious decision whether they wanted to support an industry which is responsible for so much suffering.

    nearly all people know that meat comes from animals and we do not need reminding and in all honesty I personally do not care about the welfare of a animal before death. and to what extent do you want this.
    On your New phone a small African child who is starving and lost his finger and considers suicide every day working in a sweat shop.

    A woman sitting in a hut sewing your shirt and getting payed enough only to feed herself having to split a meal between 5?

    Your vegan tofu showing a Chinese man working doing back breaking work getting payed so little?

    Yeah the world is cruel get used to it
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    nearly all people know that meat comes from animals and we do not need reminding and in all honesty I personally do not care about the welfare of a animal before death. and to what extent do you want this.
    On your New phone a small African child who is starving and lost his finger and considers suicide every day working in a sweat shop.

    A woman sitting in a hut sewing your shirt and getting payed enough only to feed herself having to split a meal between 5?

    Your vegan tofu showing a Chinese man working doing back breaking work getting payed so little?

    Yeah the world is cruel get used to it
    Yes everyone's aware that meat comes from animals but I think actually seeing the reality might make more people question the morality of it. I know it did for me- when I was a kid I knew meat came from animals but it was seeing footage online of slaughter & the conditions animals are kept in which made me decide I never wanted to eat meat again.*
    *As for the other examples you gave I think people should be more aware of the ethical implications of the way goods are produced & it would be good to encourage more ethical consumerism & campaigns such as Fair Trade, No Sweat etc. That's not a perfect solution I know & isn't affordable to everyone but still it's a step in the right direction. The difference between these other examples & the meat industry is that the food, clothing & electronics industries are vital for modern life, even if they could do with big improvements in ethical standards, whereas the meat industry isn't.
    And saying 'the world is cruel get used to it'. If everyone thought like that we'd never make any kind of progress on anything. Just because we can't solve every problem or injustice overnight doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make some kind of difference.*
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Another point is that getting all your nutrients, yes you can take tons of tablets and strange supplements but that costs money and is not very practical.

    Another is taste, why give up the wonderful foods that meat can make 1000's of dishes and the world will lose massive amounts of culture with food being a massive part of every country.
    That's really not my experience. I've been vegetarian since I was about 12 & I've never had to take tablets or supplements. It's perfectly possible to eat a balanced diet without eating meat. As far as taste goes I think I have a more varied & interesting diet than I would have had if Id continued to eat meat. I learned to cook from an early age, at the time I was the only vegetarian in my family so I agreed to do some of my own cooking instead of my mum making me *separate meals everyday. I started experimenting with recipes I'd found online & after a while got the rest of my family to try some of them. Within a few years my mum & one of my sisters went veggie themselves after realizing there were so many alternatives to meat. I think a lot of people see eating meat as the default position so if you're veggie I find often you have to think in more detail about what you're going to eat & are more willing to try recipes you might not have considered otherwise.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    Well thats what we get for having a large population
    Producing meat is highly inefficient, given that we require many times more plant protein to produce 1kg of meat than we do to feed a human. Studies have found that we could feed hundreds of millions more people, theoretically, if we stopped eating meat.

    (Original post by Napp)
    I dont doubt that it does but then again think of how it would happen without human interference, sheep would be savaged by wolves, stoats and the like would rip chickens to pieces, lions rip out animals throats and even if we factor in humans what did we do before industrialized freezing works? spears, arrows, hearding animals off of cliffs the list goes on and on. What happens is, s i said, terrible but generally speaking in the grand scheme of things it is required. I dont dispute the point on their welfare such as battery faarms of course.
    They wouldn't be released into the wild, we would just stop breeding domesticated animals. It's good to see that you're concerned about the welfare of non-human animals in the wild, though, and my position is that we have a moral obligation to try to find the best ways to reduce the suffering of animals in the wild. I would recommend reading this article for further details.

    (Original post by Napp)
    Logic also dictates it provides essential parts of our dietand whilst said nutrition can be found in other items it is shall we say less practicle?
    It doesn't require that much effort: meat and eggs are usually extremely easy to give up. Dairy is harder but can be phased out slowly. And, we could potentially have cultured meat available in five years time.

    (Original post by Squiddroon)
    Humans are omnivorous and should eat both meat and vegetables
    No, they shouldn't. We are omnivores: this means that we can choose to eat some meat, or choose not to eat any meat

    (Original post by Squiddroon)
    I do not agree with the warehouse style battery farming type this is why I buy organic or from a source I know farms and harvests meat correctly.
    Unfortunately, factory farms account for the majority of meat sold in the UK and around the world. 'Organic' and 'free-range' are usually marketing terms more than anything.

    If you know the source, i.e. you go to a local farm in which you can personally assess the conditions in which the animals are kept, then fine. Do you eat vegan when you're out and whenever else you can't assess the conditions in which the animals are kept, though? Because those animal products have likely been factory farmed.

    Also, factory farms exist for a reason: to satisfy the insatiable demand for meat. To end factory farming, we'd all have to drastically reduce our consumption of meat and eggs anyway, because there's nowhere near enough land to satisfy current demands for meat with a more humane system.

    On top of that, these humane systems are responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions, which is saying something given that the meat industry in its current form is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than the transportation sector.

    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Now this is coming from a view that Vegetarianism is right and far better. Where growing crops to feed people is not easy and does take a lot of land and labor. some think that tofu is the way to go as a substitute but that causes massive land problems and causes a lot of problems for the soil and so does farming standard crops.
    Except, 40% of the world's grain and a lot of the world's soy is grown specifically to feed animals: we'd require far less plant-based agricultural production if we stopped eating meat. We require many times more plant protein, land, water, and so on, to produce 1kg of meat than we do to feed a human.

    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Another point is that getting all your nutrients, yes you can take tons of tablets and strange supplements but that costs money and is not very practical.
    I'm a vegan, and I take Vitamin B12 supplements of 1000mcg twice a week, an Iodine supplement once every few days, and a combined Vitamin D/Omega-3 supplement every day.

    I'd hardly call three supplements 'tons', and Vitamin D supplements are now recommended for the entire UK population from October-March. People above the age of 50 are often recommended a Vitamin B12 supplement, too, because absorption of protein-bound Vitamin B12 declines with age. So, there's nothing wrong with taking a few supplements.

    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Another is taste, why give up the wonderful foods that meat can make 1000's of dishes and the world will lose massive amounts of culture with food being a massive part of every country.
    When a massive part of your culture involves inflicting needless suffering on other sentient beings, human or non-human, your culture needs to change.

    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Some people do not care and some think things should get better for animals but lets say we no longer eat meat. where do the cows go? sure some live but many are useless and will die the same with many other animals
    People ought to care about the suffering of non-humans just as they ought to care about the suffering of humans. And, we'd simply stop breeding domesticated animals for meat: they won't be released into the wild, and they will no longer endure miserable lives in factory farms; die in the millions before they even reach the slaughterhouse due to disease and neglect; or die in the millions in intense pain every single year when stunning goes wrong.

    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    On your New phone a small African child who is starving and lost his finger and considers suicide every day working in a sweat shop.

    A woman sitting in a hut sewing your shirt and getting payed enough only to feed herself having to split a meal between 5?

    Your vegan tofu showing a Chinese man working doing back breaking work getting payed so little?

    Yeah the world is cruel get used to it
    Your argument is flawed: just because we can't be perfect, doesn't mean we shouldn't reduce as much suffering as we can. (Also, as numerous economists have pointed out, sweatshops may actually be the best of many bad options in many developing countries.)
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    Producing meat is highly inefficient, given that we require many times more plant protein to produce 1kg of meat than we do to feed a human. Studies have found that we could feed hundreds of millions more people, theoretically, if we stopped eating meat.
    Maybe but plenty more studies conclude that meat is an essential part of ones diet and whilst it can be swapped out, as it were, it is not the most reccomended thing to do.
    to a point it might be inefficient it really depends how it is done doesnt it one example albeit on a small scale would be; take a farmer who has a field of cows the cows are more or less self sustaining with regards to food and water i.e. grass/silage and rain. on top of this they provide a free lawn cutting service, free manure, can be used for milk and then meat as well. Nothing wasted.

    They wouldn't be released into the wild, we would just stop breeding domesticated animals. It's good to see that you're concerned about the welfare of non-human animals in the wild, though, and my position is that we have a moral obligation to try to find the best ways to reduce the suffering of animals in the wild. I would recommend reading this article for further details.
    i'd conceed that point albeit mainly due to the toxic effects of this forced breeding, it really is very bad for the animals for instance dairy cows have been bread for maximum milk and now if they're left alone and not milked on time it causes the animal great pain. I indeed sympathize with many of these critters, some are very intelligent beasties like pigs and goats however i also observe the economic issues that contend it. I must say though when some of these videos get leaked from inside the freezing works of people murdering cows with sledge hammers, stamping on chickens etc. etc. there is a strong desire to see these individuals crucified.

    It doesn't require that much effort: meat and eggs are usually extremely easy to give up. Dairy is harder but can be phased out slowly. And, we could potentially have cultured meat available in five years time.
    Indeed maybe not however it's not as such a question of ease more of desire and feasibility which lets face it it is not desirable for most after all we do love our bacon buttys. However animals are slughtered for much more than to just be turned into slabs of ham and KFC wings, for instance gelatin, animal food, leather goods, sport etc. etc. given that no body in their right mind can refute every reason that animals are killed and multi purposed it would be wasteful to just stop eating say a cow but kill it solely for leather instead.

    No, they shouldn't. We are omnivores: this means that we can choose to eat some meat, or choose not to eat any meat


    No it means ones diet consists of both animal and vegtable matter.
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...glish/omnivore
    Noun:
    An animal or person that eats a variety of food of both plant and animal matter.
    Out of interest what is your view on vegans and other such restrictive denominations?
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    (Original post by Pulse.)
    Probably should've worded myself better. The state should have no input on the preferences of citzens as long their actions don't impede upon others.


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    Oh ok. So I should be able to go buy a dog , beat it like hell, and then burn it alive?
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    (Original post by Napp)
    Obviously no. Sod the granola chomping, tree hugging hippies who disagree they're a tiny minority with flawed logic, granted the way animals destined for slaughter are treated badly in some instnces but biologically our bodies are designed as omnivores [probably spelt wrong, soz.] and thus I reserve my god given right to lamb chops and ribeye steak!
    How is there logic flawed?

    Just because you have no rational arguments to throw back at them?

    I reserve my god damn giving right to remove scum like you from the earth.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)

    Yeah the world is cruel get used to it
    I must use that line on you if any of your family ever get brutally murdered.
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    (Original post by pillock)
    How is there logic flawed?

    Just because you have no rational arguments to throw back at them?

    I reserve my god damn giving right to remove scum like you from the earth.
    If you're going to try and fault my intelligenceit would help your case no end if you knew the difference between their and there.

    Well lets see whats flawed in denying millenia of evolution, rendering us omnivores, and instead saying we should live off of nuts and berries due to morals. Hmm no you're right that makes perfect sense (Y)

    Ooh you are a drole little fellow aren't you :') Do please take a long walk off of a short cliff.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    If you're going to try and fault my intelligenceit would help your case no end if you knew the difference between their and there.

    Well lets see whats flawed in denying millenia of evolution, rendering us omnivores, and instead saying we should live off of nuts and berries due to morals. Hmm no you're right that makes perfect sense (Y)

    Ooh you are a drole little fellow aren't you :') Do please take a long walk off of a short cliff.
    For millions of years our ancestors pooed and peed wherever they fancied; stop denying evolution by using a toilet you fool

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    (Original post by Napp)
    If you're going to try and fault my intelligenceit would help your case no end if you knew the difference between their and there.

    Well lets see whats flawed in denying millenia of evolution, rendering us omnivores, and instead saying we should live off of nuts and berries due to morals. Hmm no you're right that makes perfect sense (Y)

    Ooh you are a drole little fellow aren't you :' Do please take a long walk off of a short cliff.
    It was a mistake ok. Everyone makes them. Especially your parents who made a very big mistake all those years ago.

    That 'we are pure omnivores man so don't dare take away my flesh' is nothing but a pure myth. Its a a false argument used to justify barbarism against animals just because humans have to power to do it.

    Now let be mention a few experts to help with my argument. You can look this up for yourself if you like or you can continue being the ignorant buffoon you currently are.
    Dr. T. Colin Campbell, professor emeritus at Cornell University and author of The china study, explains that in fact, we only recently (historically speaking) began eating meat, and that the inclusion of meat in our diet came well after we became who we are today. He explains that “the birth of agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago at a time when it became considerably more convenient to herd animals. This is not nearly as long as the time [that] fashioned our basic biochemical functionality (at least tens of millions of years) and which functionality depends on the nutrient composition of plant-based foods.”That jibes with what Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine President Dr. Neal Barnard says in his book, The Power of Your Plate, in which he explains that “early humans had diets very much like other great apes, which is to say a largely plant-based diet, drawing on foods we can pick with our hands. Research suggests that meat-eating probably began by scavenging—eating the leftovers that carnivores had left behind. However, our bodies have never adapted to it. To this day, meat-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other problems.”There is no more authoritative source on anthropological issues than paleontologist Dr. Richard Leakey, who explains what anyone who has taken an introductory physiology course might have discerned intuitively—that humans are herbivores. Leakey notes that “[y]ou can’t tear flesh by hand, you can’t tear hide by hand.... We wouldn’t have been able to deal with food source that required those large canines” (although we have teeth that are called “canines,” they bear little resemblance to the canines of carnivores).

    In fact, our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Similarly, like the intestines of other herbivores, ours are very long (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don’t have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey. And most of us (hopefully) lack the instinct that would drive us to chase and then kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. Dr. Milton Mills builds on these points and offers dozens more in his essay, “The point is this: Thousands of years ago when we were hunter-gatherers, we may have needed a bit of meat in our diets in times of scarcity, but we don’t need it now. Says Dr. WCR, editor of the American Journal of Cardiology, “Although we think we are, and we act as if we are, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us, because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores.”Sure, most of us are “behavioral omnivores”—that is, we eat meat, so that defines us as omnivorous. But our evolution and physiology are herbivorous, and ample science proves that when we choose to eat meat, that causes problems, from decreased energy and a need for more sleep up to increased risk for obesity, diet, and fat.Old habits die hard, and it’s convenient for people who like to eat meat to think that there is evidence to support their belief that eating meat is “natural” or the cause of our evolution. For many years, I too, clung to the idea that meat and dairy were good for me; I realize now that I was probably comforted to have justification for my continued attachment to the traditions I grew up with.But in fact top nutritional and anthropological scientists from the most reputable institutions imaginable say categorically that humans are natural herbivores, and that we will be healthier today if we stick with our herbivorous roots. It may be inconvenient, but it alas, it is the truth.Oh I am sorry is all this too rational for you?
 
 
 
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