Turn on thread page Beta

James Bulger killers - should they have been freed when they were? watch

    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Well, they battered him, poured paint all over him, twisted his genitals round and round until they were only hanging on by the skin(something that wasn't reported, or told to the parents- it only got out because of leaks), they stuffed batteried up his rectum, and then they laid him on a teain track and waited for a train to cut him in half. He was found in two. I'd sa that was a wee bit more than "naughtiness".

    To inflict that kind of pain on someone is almost beyond belief- and it isn't possible to teach people evil from good. Most people are naturally averse to inflicting pain- they would have KNOWN they were killing him,m and tortuing him. Indeed, they planned to kill a child.
    Jesus Christ, that is horrific. I mean, kids from a really rough background using the kid as a punchbag - then him dying because they can't appreciate the consequences of their actions almost could be in a very perverse way, not understandable, but it isn't in the same league as that kind of pure sadism really? I had always assumed this case was the latter. There's no way they wouldn't know that they were going to kill him here though.

    I'm sorry but for that they really don't deserve freedom. Even as children, there is something in most peoples character(morality?) that would naturally prevent something like this, which it doesn't appear they have.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tomber)
    Even as children, there is something in most peoples character(morality?) that would naturally prevent something like this, which it doesn't appear they have.
    I disagree, although I can't provide any kind of factual information, it's just my own perception. I'm not questioning that what they did was absolutely appalling, beyond what any of us could even imagine doing, but I do feel that morality is something that has to be taught and that with a poor enough upbringing it would be possible to raise kids who just don't have any kind of grasp of what is right and wrong. It's an interesting thought, what makes you feel that morality is an inbuilt perception, an inherent quality that we have?
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jennybean)
    If this is true, I don't know, let's say a FACT, please provide a source. It's my opinion that even if they have taken steps to create a semblance of a normal life, they will never be able to enjoy it like any other person would.
    Do the research yourself. One is hooked up with a pregnant girlfriend (who's oblivious of his past) and the other is a homosexual, on crack and his partner is aware of who he is. Reporting on these people is only banned in the UK....you're a big girl, surely can use google by now eh?

    ten year olds don't maim and kill little kids without one hell of an awful upbringing.
    Clearly they weren't brought up in a high class home, where mummy pays for boarding school, ponies and monthly trips to the Dordogne. I agree they were desensitised to violence, however desensitisation doesn't rule out the fact they were in possession of free will and morality.

    They're not evil, they were obviously totally desensitised to what was normal or they would never have done such a terrible thing in the first place.
    I disagree to an extent; based on reports and interviews I'd say the ringleader was. If the guy hadn't have killed a child at 10 years old, god knows what he'd have done. I think what happened was a mix of wickedness and morbid curiosity.

    It's my opinion that even if they have taken steps to create a semblance of a normal life
    How exactly do you define a 'normal life'?

    Please in future refrain from throwing obscentities my way. It's rich, especially coming from someone who referred to Abu Hamza as Captain Hook.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jennybean)
    I disagree, although I can't provide any kind of factual information, it's just my own perception. I'm not questioning that what they did was absolutely appalling, beyond what any of us could even imagine doing, but I do feel that morality is something that has to be taught and that with a poor enough upbringing it would be possible to raise kids who just don't have any kind of grasp of what is right and wrong. It's an interesting thought, what makes you feel that morality is an inbuilt perception, an inherent quality that we have?
    My flagging faith in human nature I think
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Richy_Boi)
    Do the research yourself. One is hooked up with a pregnant girlfriend (who's oblivious of his past) and the other is a homosexual, on crack and his partner is aware of who he is. Reporting on these people is only banned in the UK....you're a big girl, surely can use google by now eh?
    I take it this is your way of saying you can't provide a reliable source. I would prefer to refrain from using an internet search engine, which could throw up any number of people's opinions on the subject, none of which I would be likely to take as gospel. I really hope you're not implying what I think you're implying about the fact that one of them is gay.

    (Original post by Richy_Boi)
    Clearly they weren't brought up in a high class home, where mummy pays for boarding school, ponies and monthly trips to the Dordogne. I agree they were desensitised to violence, however desensitisation doesn't rule out the fact they were in possession of free will and morality.
    No it doesn't rule it out and no one has even attempted to argue that they were coerced into their actions, clearly it was premeditated and their decision. But I do think we can safely say they were not in possession of a normal perception of morality. I was pretty young at the time the story broke but the image I retain is their mugshots, which, as I remember it, showed a couple of terrified children, not the hardened faces of criminals who knew exactly what they were doing but gained pleasure from the sadism of it.

    (Original post by Richy_Boi)
    How exactly do you define a 'normal life'?

    Please in future refrain from throwing obscentities my way. It's rich, especially coming from someone who referred to Abu Hamza as Captain Hook.
    I define a normal upbringing as one which does not include undue elements of fear, violence or abuse. Perhaps normal was a bad choice of word though; I don't want people to assume I associate a middle class upbringing with being normal, or the only acceptable way to bring up children, because I don't. I think it's probably true that mostly, privilege can contribute to bringing up children with a strong sense of morality, but often it can work the other way as well, so I would say that a normal upbringing is that involving parents who show their children love, respect and nurturing, and teach them to display these qualities themselves. The convicted children had, by all accounts, suffered horrifically in their upbringing, with these crucial elements seemingly entirely absent. I would never have called you an idiot if you hadn't addressed me in such a patronising and condescending way. I will refrain from name calling if you will refrain from being so arrogant. The Captain Hook thing was a joke - you're a big boy, surely you've developed a sense of humour by now eh?
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Richy_Boi)
    especially coming from someone who referred to Abu Hamza as Captain Hook.
    Come now, it's obviously a great name for him

    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tomber)
    Come now, it's obviously a great name for him

    This guy knows what I'm talking about ;yes;


    :cool:
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jennybean)
    I disagree, although I can't provide any kind of factual information, it's just my own perception. I'm not questioning that what they did was absolutely appalling, beyond what any of us could even imagine doing, but I do feel that morality is something that has to be taught and that with a poor enough upbringing it would be possible to raise kids who just don't have any kind of grasp of what is right and wrong. It's an interesting thought, what makes you feel that morality is an inbuilt perception, an inherent quality that we have?
    Ypu've made me think twice, so well done. It got m thinking to, of how it is possible to desensitise soldiers so they can kill at ease, and how gang violence in South America, chopping off heads etc, can be done very easily. Perhaps social conditioning has more of an efect than i gave it credit for in general. However, it was the sexual element of what they did that got to me, and thats why i though it was sadism.

    And while i'm inclined to move further in your direction, it still doesn't justify the small sentences they receive. Most serial killers have the "sob story"- the appalling background- but does that mean we should be moe sympathetic with them regarding sentencing? I just don't know to be honest.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Richy_Boi)
    Yes.
    Would you have fully understood the question I'd just asked at that age?
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Ypu've made me think twice, so well done. It got m thinking to, of how it is possible to desensitise soldiers so they can kill at ease, and how gang violence in South America, chopping off heads etc, can be done very easily. Perhaps social conditioning has more of an efect than i gave it credit for in general. However, it was the sexual element of what they did that got to me, and thats why i though it was sadism.

    And while i'm inclined to move further in your direction, it still doesn't justify the small sentences they receive. Most serial killers have the "sob story"- the appalling background- but does that mean we should be moe sympathetic with them regarding sentencing? I just don't know to be honest.
    Yeah, what you've mentioned are some other perfect examples of how it's possible to totally brutalise people when they started out pretty normally. Have you seen Blood Diamond? Being the bleeding heart that I am I was choking back tears for most of it but the bits that seriously seriously got to me were the scenes showing the child soldiers who had been taken from their families and literally brainwashed so that they were now just killing machines, they can't listen, they can't hear people's appeals or feel mercy, they just do what they've been trained to do. It was absolutely gut wrenching. I think sometimes people in this country forget that atrocities happen all over the world all the time, the most terrible, heinous acts committed by all kinds of people and anyone would be capable of carrying out an act like that if exposed to the necessary destructive influences, especially at such a young age.

    So then when something like Jamie Bulger's murder does happen, we're all so shocked because we don't hear of stuff like that happening very often, we immediately say they must be evil. Now I'm not ruling out that there are some people who are much more predisposed to do bad things than others, and certainly I feel some people are sadistic and cruel by nature, but those things normally expose themselves during one's adult years when one has seen more of life and become cynical and embittered. I simply don't believe that those boys were born, got to ten years old then one day decided to torture and kill a baby. They must have gone through some pretty horrific stages in between to get to that point.

    As for the sentencing, I think I'm like you really - undecided. I don't think they should spend their entire lives in prison but I do feel their sentences were distinctly on the lenient side, but wasn't it Michael Howard who made a bit of a hash of it all?

    Btw, glad to know you appreciated my post enough to neg rep it, lmao! Good thing I'm fond of you, my dear...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jennybean)
    Yeah, what you've mentioned are some other perfect examples of how it's possible to totally brutalise people when they started out pretty normally. Have you seen Blood Diamond? Being the bleeding heart that I am I was choking back tears for most of it but the bits that seriously seriously got to me were the scenes showing the child soldiers who had been taken from their families and literally brainwashed so that they were now just killing machines, they can't listen, they can't hear people's appeals or feel mercy, they just do what they've been trained to do. It was absolutely gut wrenching. I think sometimes people in this country forget that atrocities happen all over the world all the time, the most terrible, heinous acts committed by all kinds of people and anyone would be capable of carrying out an act like that if exposed to the necessary destructive influences, especially at such a young age.

    So then when something like Jamie Bulger's murder does happen, we're all so shocked because we don't hear of stuff like that happening very often, we immediately say they must be evil. Now I'm not ruling out that there are some people who are much more predisposed to do bad things than others, and certainly I feel some people are sadistic and cruel by nature, but those things normally expose themselves during one's adult years when one has seen more of life and become cynical and embittered. I simply don't believe that those boys were born, got to ten years old then one day decided to torture and kill a baby. They must have gone through some pretty horrific stages in between to get to that point.

    As for the sentencing, I think I'm like you really - undecided. I don't think they should spend their entire lives in prison but I do feel their sentences were distinctly on the lenient side, but wasn't it Michael Howard who made a bit of a hash of it all?

    Btw, glad to know you appreciated my post enough to neg rep it, lmao! Good thing I'm fond of you, my dear...

    Oh crap! I actually meant to POS rep it because it made me think and change my mind. But i typed my comment without clicking which rep i wanted to give it, and then just before the page changed, i clicked what i thught was pos-rep. Damnit, there goes my record of never neg-repping anyone! That sucks! And i agree with everything you say here too.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Cage)
    I think people should remember that when these kids committed this heinous crime, they were exactly that - kids. Kids from a very rough background, to say the least. What they did was appalling, but they have to be punished as children who've done something very bad, not as adults committing evil. They've paid for their crimes well enough.
    Agreed.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Oh crap! I actually meant to POS rep it because it made me think and change my mind. But i typed my comment without clicking which rep i wanted to give it, and then just before the page changed, i clicked what i thught was pos-rep. Damnit, there goes my record of never neg-repping anyone! That sucks! And i agree with everything you say here too.
    Hahaha yeah don't worry, I gathered from the comment that it was meant to be positive! Just made me giggle that's all, but you're right you have sort of ruined it for yourself now...
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    From a legal viewpoint the Home Secretary made a botch-up. Whilst he must bare in mind the doctrine of mandate (responsibility to electors), by placing undue weight and consideration on public opinion as severely as he did, and by failing to take into account the boys progress in detention he didn't help this case at all. Public policy is important of course, but judges are aware how manipulative the media is. The medias ability to distort public perceptions completely frustrates the rule of law.

    I personally cant say whether 8 years was long enough. I haven't spent time with the killers. I'm not their parol officer or psychologist. How can any of us really say?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I feel that most murders demand longer minimum sentences than the ones that are given out.

    --

    However, I find it repugnant of certain British newspapers that they constantly conduct their own trial by newspaper thus potentially alllowing the defence to claim that a jury could have been prejudiced by this. A sizeable proportion of the readership of some of these newspapers are not a million miles away from the violent, twisted people that they love reading about. If they are not violent themselves then they are at least fascinated by violent characters, thus part glorifying them. That is a perverse irony that is so ingrained in British culture now. 'The public gets what the public wants' as Paul Weller sang.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    i read an article on the killers in the tim\es a few months ago and it was interesting hwat it said and how the two boys were monitered. But to be honest they will pay for the crime they commited for their whole lives one of the boys who they said had followed the other but still was as equally guilty had serious mental health problems after and each day in the trial he would rip his clothes off after and had new clothes everyday because he could smell the blood. and also the fact that theyve lost their families and have to have a new identity is enough punishment i think.

    thats my point of view xx
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    We should've given those little 10 year olds ****ers thew chair...

    Oh yeah, if you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    It actually made me feel sick when i just read the story of what they did,
    IMO eight years is way way WAY too short a sentance.

    However, i am not a judge, i have no higher concept of the law etc. a man with a lot more knowledge than i made this decision, and he obviously did it for a reason, so hey, i'll live with it.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    IMO absolutely no excuse, its not simply murder, its pure torture,and it doesnt mater if your 10 or 20 or 50 years old, they had paint with them, they had batteries, they were thinking about it long before it happened, "they didnt know any better" **** doesnt work, they are not human, they are not children, they are not boys, they are nothing, absolutley nothing and a pure waste of life, they derserve no liencey, no lives, no family, friends or a place to call home. they should have their limbs cut off with a rusty saw and no morphene, sit in prison for a few years, then throw em in solidary confinment, and on their 40th birthday we crucify them on a well used raily track then get buried in a hole unmarked, no visitors, no funeral, nothing, they dont deserve any more than that
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    (Original post by Son555)
    IMO absolutely no excuse, its not simply murder, its pure torture,and it doesnt mater if your 10 or 20 or 50 years old, they had paint with them, they had batteries, they were thinking about it long before it happened, "they didnt know any better" **** doesnt work, they are not human, they are not children, they are not boys, they are nothing, absolutley nothing and a pure waste of life, they derserve no liencey, no lives, no family, friends or a place to call home. they should have their limbs cut off with a rusty saw and no morphene, sit in prison for a few years, then throw em in solidary confinment, and on their 40th birthday we crucify them on a well used raily track then get buried in a hole unmarked, no visitors, no funeral, nothing, they dont deserve any more than that
    With just one post, you've proved that you're exactly the same as them.

    Well done.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: August 3, 2007
Poll
Black Friday: Yay or Nay?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.