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Ehhh... I'm kinda with the anti-Trump brigade on this one Watch

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    (Original post by Atlas Thugged)
    This is the real issue. Trump's bigotry is goofy and clownish, Hillary has literally lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims.
    feel sorry for the american people who do they pick?
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    The mother replies:
    His wife, Ghazala Khan, dismissed Trump’s insinuation and reiterated that she had been too upset to talk after seeing a picture of her son displayed on the stage. “What mother could?” she asked in an article written for the Washington Post. “Donald Trump has children whom he loves. Does he really need to wonder why I did not speak?”


    “She said, ‘You know my condition – when I see my son’s picture I cannot hold myself together,’” said Khan, becoming tearful. “This country holds such a person in the highest regard, and he has no knowledge, no awareness. That is the height of his ignorance.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...hizr-khan-soul
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I don't know about the former, but definitely not the latter.
    Not sure. http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/03/po...ime/index.html
    Do you support trump?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    He's a corporate billionaire who's benefited from employing illegal immigrants and moving his firms offshore to take advantage of cheap labor. He's every bit as 'establishment' as Clinton.
    It is not about his actions, it is about his words. People care about what he is saying, not what he is. As I keep reiterating, I don't like Trump either, and I would definitely say he is hypocritical. But I am talking about his popularity, which is what is important with regards to him becoming president or not.

    N.B. In hindsight what I've said here is rather silly,as people do care a lot about actions, hence the dislike for Hillary despite her generally saying the right things. But essentially Trump, through his directness, gives the appearance of really meaning what he says.

    Proposing to ban all Muslims and making Mexico pay for a wall are hardly 'honest alternatives'. What alternative is he offering, seriously
    I did not say they were honest alternatives. I said they were alternatives, and he forces honesty into the debate. I think they are absurd (absolutely against the first, which is as idiotic as it is morally indefensible, and the second, a border fence may be a good idea to be honest - in fact Clinton has conceded this herself I believe - but I doubt he is going to make Mexico pay for it) solutions to problems but the point is that he is addressing these problems in some way. He is not pussyfooting about the issues of radical Islam and immigration like so many else do. I am annoyed to keep reiterating this but given the tone of your message it seems a necessity: I don't agree with what Trump is saying, I simply have to admit that he is contributing to the opening up of debate in what seem like no-go-zones for so many politicians.

    What has he said that no one else will? He's just as smug as anyone else.
    Well, i guess the above addresses this. I agree that he comes off as very smug/self-satisfied, but he does not seem to take the moral highground so much.
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    (Original post by PrincessBO$$)
    feel sorry for the american people who do they pick?
    For me, I think it's up to people to rely on themselves and not politicians to solve their problems. Both are less than ideal certainly, but more than anything it's for the government to protect people's rights and leave them alone rather than micromanage their lives.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Does he want to provide healthcare to the millions of Americans who cannot afford it?
    Does he want to increase taxes on the ultra wealthy and clamp down on corporate tax avoidance?

    He's a neoliberal capitalist, that's establishment. Libertarians are hardly anti-establishment either given they wholeheartedly support our neoliberal economic system.
    Given that libertarianism is primarily the belief that the government should be as small as necessarily possible, I'd say that by definition they're pretty anti-establishment, or at least anti the political establishment, which is the establishment in question here.

    The fact that Trump isn't Bernie Sanders does not have any sway over the fact that he is anti-establishment. He has completely riled up the political establishment and the media, who spend a huge amount of time trying to get people to hate him. Their is concerted effort from politicians and the media to get the world to hate Trump. Trump has no regard for appeasing the political establishment or the media establishment. That is what makes people consider him "anti-establishment".
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Sure, the anti-Trump brigade totally took his words about Mexican cartel members coming over the border out of context and made it look like he was talking about all Mexican immigrants. They've twisted a lot of stuff he's said, they've misconstrued stuff. His comments that Russia would find a lot of great stuff if they hacked Hillary's email were clearly sarcastic, and said with large degree of tongue-in-cheek. But I think his comments about the Muslim mother and father of the American soldier who died were pretty terrible. It was a really cold hearted response, and it was very stupid and undiplomatic. If you want to know what I'm talking about, see here:
    I am sorry to hear that.
    I strongly support Trump
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    (Original post by Themini)
    Not sure. http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/03/po...ime/index.html
    Do you support trump?
    Not really. I only might vote for him because Clinton is absolutely terrifying.
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    It is not about his actions, it is about his words. People care about what he is saying, not what he is. As I keep reiterating, I don't like Trump either, and I would definitely say he is hypocritical. But I am talking about his popularity, which is what is important with regards to him becoming president or not.



    I did not say they were honest alternatives. I said they were alternatives, and he forces honesty into the debate. I think they are absurd (absolutely against the first, which is as idiotic as it is morally indefensible, and the second, a border fence may be a good idea to be honest - in fact Clinton has conceded this herself I believe - but I doubt he is going to make Mexico pay for it) solutions to problems but the point is that he is addressing these problems in some way. He is not pussyfooting about the issues of radical Islam and immigration like so many else do. I am annoyed to keep reiterating this but given the tone of your message it seems a necessity: I don't agree with what Trump is saying, I simply have to admit that he is contributing to the opening up of debate in what seem like no-go-zones for so many politicians.



    Well, i guess the above addresses this. I agree that he comes off as very smug/self-satisfied, but he does not seem to take the moral highground so much.
    I agree he appears to be talking about issues, but he's not actually offering solutions or addressing the issues.

    He just goes for 'kick them out, build a wall, send them home' etc.
    They're soundbites rather than solutions.

    None of these areas are no-go for other politicians. What debate has he opened? If it's a debate about banning all Muslims, is that a debate we really want opened?
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    It is just so bad that he gets away with saying crap about people and what I hate is that people still follow him, so many do!
    Though, he might have gone a bit far talking about the military personnel who lost his life, there is a great amount of respect for military in the USA so that won't help him.
    By the way, I don't believe his comments on the emails were sarcastic, he definitely wants them published!!
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    x
    People like Trump because he offers facile solutions to infinitely complex problems, solutions which people can very easily understand without much thought or scrutiny. The reason those facile solutions are taken seriously is because of all the millions he's made.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Not really. I only might vote for him because Clinton is absolutely terrifying.
    You're American?
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Given that libertarianism is primarily the belief that the government should be as small as necessarily possible, I'd say that by definition they're pretty anti-establishment, or at least anti the political establishment, which is the establishment in question here.

    The fact that Trump isn't Bernie Sanders does not have any sway over the fact that he is anti-establishment. He has completely riled up the political establishment and the media, who spend a huge amount of time trying to get people to hate him. Their is concerted effort from politicians and the media to get the world to hate Trump. Trump has no regard for appeasing the political establishment or the media establishment. That is what makes people consider him "anti-establishment".
    Government is already small, given that there is no state provision of healthcare.....
    The political establishment is not separate from the economic establishment and he represents the establishment just as much as Clinton does.

    He's a corporate billionaire who was born into immense wealth, who's made numerous businesses bankrupt, who's employed illegal immigrants to keep wages low.

    Now what part of that is 'anti-establishment'?
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    You're American?
    Hypothetically.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Government is already small, given that there is no state provision of healthcare.....
    The political establishment is not separate from the economic establishment and he represents the establishment just as much as Clinton does.

    He's a corporate billionaire who was born into immense wealth, who's made numerous businesses bankrupt, who's employed illegal immigrants to keep wages low.

    Now what part of that is 'anti-establishment'?
    How does the fact he is a billionaire who employs illegal immigrants have any affect on whether he is anti-political establishment or not? There are drug lords who you could say exactly the same things about. I think they're generally considered as pretty anti-political establishment.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Sure, the anti-Trump brigade totally took his words about Mexican cartel members coming over the border out of context and made it look like he was talking about all Mexican immigrants. They've twisted a lot of stuff he's said, they've misconstrued stuff. His comments that Russia would find a lot of great stuff if they hacked Hillary's email were clearly sarcastic, and said with large degree of tongue-in-cheek. But I think his comments about the Muslim mother and father of the American soldier who died were pretty terrible. It was a really cold hearted response, and it was very stupid and undiplomatic. If you want to know what I'm talking about, see here:
    Hi,

    Donald Trump is a moron. Unfortunately, it seems at times that he doesn't understand that there's a difference between being politically incorrect and being outright rude. In many regards, his inability to act with a whiff of professionalism does raise adverse questions about his ability to lead one of the world's leading superpowers at a time when geopolitical tensions and international terrorism are such pertinent topics of conversation.

    However, in the General Americans have a choice between two people: Clinton or Trump. Many people will go on about the possibility of voting for the Libertarians or the Greens, but let's be honest, a vote for the Greens is a vote for Trump and a vote for the Libertarians is a vote for Clinton. Donald Trump might not present himself in the most complimentary of terms, but on the whole what he has to say about many global and internal matters has been a welcome change from the tired political norms of previous presidential candidates before us. I don't like the fact that Donald Trump is bombastic, but I do admire his capacity to challenge the establishment and his successes as a businessperson.

    If we can put aside his distasteful person, we have to accept that Donald Trump offers an unique blend of economic nationalism and social libertarianism. A Donald Trump presidency might not appease the establishment or left-leaning liberals whose political views are formed from online hashtags, but at least he will offer something different and be unafraid to say the obvious just because it might be controversial. If the rise of populism has told us anything, it's that pandering to political correctness has never been more unpopular.

    As I said, I don't like Donald Trump for his person but I like him for his approach. I wanted Rubio to win the GOP nomination because I thought he'd win the Hispanic vote and at least get a true conservative into the White House. As much as Trump mightn't be the perfect candidate, he's the best candidate. Yes, we should denounce him for his recklessness. No, we shouldn't not support him as a result of it.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I agree he appears to be talking about issues, but he's not actually offering solutions or addressing the issues.

    He just goes for 'kick them out, build a wall, send them home' etc.
    They're soundbites rather than solutions.

    None of these areas are no-go for other politicians. What debate has he opened? If it's a debate about banning all Muslims, is that a debate we really want opened?
    Well I basically agree that they are nothing close to fully-fledged solutions. But people don't want a detailed plan. Soundbites sell, especially when they come across as honest. The average member of the American population will just want to know, in simplest terms, their candidates position. And wanting to "kick all Muslims out" or whatever, is damn simple terms. You know where he stands when he says it, and people love this, especially in contrast to a politician like Hillary who flip-flops so much and seems to lack any conviction.

    Well, the vast majority will not really address the fact that radical Islam is radical Islam, for instance. They will say ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, they will claim Islam is a religion of peace. It's the same old tired stuff over and over again. They sweep refugee rapes under the rug, they avoid discussing the problems associated with bringing refugees in in general. They avoid discussing the cultural disparities that may well contribute to these events.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Hypothetically.



    How does the fact he is a billionaire who employs illegal immigrants have any affect on whether he is anti-political establishment or not? There are drug lords who you could say exactly the same things about. I think they're generally considered as pretty anti-political establishment.
    Because he's taken advantage of our political and economic system to make fortunes.
    What part of him is anti-establishment? Our political and economic system are irreversibly intertwined and the idea that you can separate them is bs.
    Being a politican does not make you part of the establishment unless you think Sanders and Corbyn are establishment. Likewise not being a politician does not make you anti-establishment.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    People like Trump because he offers facile solutions to infinitely complex problems, solutions which people can very easily understand without much thought or scrutiny. The reason those facile solutions are taken seriously is because of all the millions he's made.
    Yeah basically. I believe he has been bankrupt several times anyway right? I am not sure of the extent of his neoliberal policies, but historically markets with less restrictions have not exactly flourished, and deregulation has not exactly had positive effects. The notion that he is a safe pair of hands with an economy is...flawed.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Not really. I only might vote for him because Clinton is absolutely terrifying.
    I can understand why. At least Trump is upfront about it. Hillary is an evil lady. She really is. I don't think most people understand how corrupt she actually is.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    He just goes for 'kick them out, build a wall, send them home' etc.
    You missed out the "and they can come back into our country, but they have to do it legally" part!
 
 
 
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