Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Guardian: 'We are Europeans. Brexit will make us face up to it' watch

    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    [QUOTE=richpanda;66990566]Love Europe, hate the EU. I think many will agree with me on this.[QUOTE=richpanda;66990566]

    Maybe in Britain, not so much in continental Europe.

    Being part of the EU is part and parcel of being truly European. You cannot say 'oh, I love Athens, so much history, and rural Portugal is so nice - the people there make me feel like home' without being ok to have your tax Pounds going towards new roads in Portugal being subsidized or Greek banks being bailed out without getting. Belonging, community, friendship implies solidarity. Anything else is highly selfish and exploitative.

    (Original post by richpanda)
    I do often see many people from the continent call themselves 'European' when 95% of Brits in the same context would call themselves British.
    Yup, but that kind of contradicts your previous statement.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)

    Maybe in Britain, not so much in continental Europe.

    Being part of the EU is part and parcel of being truly European. You cannot say 'oh, I love Athens, so much history, and rural Portugal is so nice - the people there make me feel like home' without being ok to have your tax Pounds going towards new roads in Portugal being subsidized or Greek banks being bailed out without getting. Belonging, community, friendship implies solidarity. Anything else is highly selfish and exploitative.



    Yup, but that kind of contradicts your previous statement.
    No it doesn't. It's just that most of us see ourselves as British first, rather than European first. I'm not surprised by your response 'Teutonic' Phil.

    As for the nonsense about being part of the EU to be European, I can't even be bothered to reply. That's the kind of nonsense that made people vote leave.
    Offline

    6
    ReputationRep:
    What arrogance from the OP.

    So basically what he's saying is that apparantly the 17m people who voted to leave had no idea what they were voting for, and if they do their views are not 'justfied'.

    I don't know why any of you bother. When someone has no basic respect to the opposite's argument it really is pointless to argue with that person.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    My favorite part:

    "Crossing the Atlantic is an efficient treatment for the delusion that Britain is significant in some way distinctively from its status as a European country."

    Discuss, my fellow Europeans!
    It is different- links to every corner of the globe and the countries that have our foundations, our influence...everywhere from Jamaica, to India, Kenya, and Hong Kong.
    The political tradition of individual liberty that founded the anglosphere. We have never been overly communitarian, never fallen into facism of totalitarianism. Never been interested in religious fervour or racial zealotry.
    We have a dislike of authority, and were able to sustain the freest way of life on earth due to our unique evolution, constitution, the stability and balance of power it gave us.
    In my opinion, too many remainers don't have enough curiosity about history, they simply frame everything in current terms and received wisdom.
    I have a conception of what we had and what we lost through the EU, because of their political culture, and am saddened by it.

    I didn't buy any of the self-serving rubbish about being inward looking or racist. In fact this vague translates ad the fact that they like France, and Tuscany, more than their own ghastly country (outside London), and don't think much of other places in the world, and want to be open to Europe at the expense of other connections, which have continually suffered and been demeaned by many Europhiles.

    It's Europe that is inward, not us, and the cultural snobs want to be open to them but not much else.

    There is a lot of shallow snobbery and a vague sense of being in a cosmopolitan tribe behind remain. Yet the issue of our relative loss of connection to other parts of the world, including the commonwealth, is either regarded with derision and ignored, or unrecognised. It is especially galling to be told by smug Europeans who love the EU that we are nothing without them, the commonwealth is irrelevant.

    You can see that we are there just to benefit the imperialistic ambitions of that superstate in the eyes of many, and just be some derided island reduced by them in self-esteem(they have achieved with many) that has bad weather and is more indistinct EU territory.

    The fact is the economic deal is authoritarian and the worst on earth, holds us at gunpoint and tells us we'll be punished if we leave the single market, and limits our trading independence and obliterates our sovereignty, all for the dubious benefits of the construct of the 'single market' and connection to the disastrous Eurozone which is causing mass misery and loss of wealth. We would never enter knowing what we know, from the reverse predicament. So it can only be a fear vote and a status quo vote which would be rewarding the generations of deceit by pro-federalist politicians and never having the guts to disentangle ourselves because of blackmail.

    To suggest that this is 'what makes Britain great' as establishment remainers, of the type that have sold out our people for 20 years, did, is risible and should be treated with the contempt with which they treat us.

    There's something about Poles telling black people who've been here generations that 'this is Europe' and 'Go home' that makes me sick. It just seems to encapsulate everything I hate about the EU- the wish for a white homogenized christian mono-culture, with smug derision for all else, expansionist, undemocratic and arrogant. To top that it calls the people who oppose it here racist- it doesn't even make sense. We are the most racially and religiously diverse country in Europe, and have had massive success until recent years where immigration has been too high, and militant Islam is a problem.

    I value all of this history, I'm immensely proud of non-ethnic patriotism and nationalism, never succumbing to authoritariansm and our unique history, our questioning, innovative and tolerant culture.

    We have chance to forge a unique and independent future. I don't want it wrecked by zealots who don't appreciate what we have and reduce the entire other side of a case to an oversimplification. The danger of ignorance is only ever portrayed as on the leave side, such is the self-satisfaction of remain, they are utterly blind of course, to their own narrowness of perspective..


    To hear some of them proclaiming people idiots and saying, 6 weeks after a vote, that they have proven beyond doubt they won the economic argument, just encapsulates their arrogance and myopia, and why people did not accept their consensus and looked for alternatives. How can anyone credibly say there were not massive, deep rooted economic problems anyhow, how can they fail to see the disaster of the Euro, and how can they state they know an economic decision is wrong based on 6 weeks of data? This shows they are either completely disingenuous and lacking integrity, ignorantly arrogant, or short termists beyond logic(in fact I found many like this, which is why I think a lot of it was a fear vote).


    What about the danger of not fully understanding history, and how it pertains to the future, and the value of self-determination, the opportunity we have for independence in shaping our destiny?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    What arrogance from the OP.

    So basically what he's saying is that apparantly the 17m people who voted to leave had no idea what they were voting for, and if they do their views are not 'justfied'.

    I don't know why any of you bother. When someone has no basic respect to the opposite's argument it really is pointless to argue with that person.
    I've seen it time time again. They are conceited, patronising idiots, so many of them.

    Owen Jones, the voice of the working class, says people just 'felt Brexity', a silly little spasm, as anything that disrupts the calamity of the last 20 years of our politics must be.

    'Though the economic argument was clearly won, we didn't speak to emotions as well as leave' God, they are insufferable. This one was pitched in a tone that believed it was being so magnanimous and very much trying to understand the fools and proles.

    And yet, what have they consumed, other than the BBC and maybe the Guardian?

    Tariq Ali, one of the most interesting and intelligent advocates of Brexit.Got not one bit of coverage, didn't fit their Brexit=racist narrative.

    All the economic experts.......well I know a lot of big corporates and megabanks lobby the EU to get the exact legislation they want...may just have swayed the debate.

    But-

    Joseph Stiglitz, nobel winning economist, says the Eurozone single currency is a disaster and Brexit is better for Britain than TTIP. There are countless articles, stuff on the web. He's one of the greatest economists. He backs Corbyn, interestingly, and Max Keiser does.

    We heard nothing of such things in the Beeb or Guardian. Zilch.

    I could go on.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)

    Maybe in Britain, not so much in continental Europe.

    Being part of the EU is part and parcel of being truly European. You cannot say 'oh, I love Athens, so much history, and rural Portugal is so nice - the people there make me feel like home' without being ok to have your tax Pounds going towards new roads in Portugal being subsidized or Greek banks being bailed out without getting. Belonging, community, friendship implies solidarity. Anything else is highly selfish and exploitative.
    .
    Yes, nothing selfish and exploitative about Greece, the birthplace of civilization, being colonized by German banks. Or forcing your Euro dream and hence single currency on southern Europe which plunges them into poverty and mass unemployment. Or co-opting multitudes in Europe into collective foreign policy. Or forcing them into an arrogant, undemocratic institution that continually overrides and ignored the public vote and makes decisions and legislation with the unelected. Or an institution with a history of cosying up to, being lobbied by the banks and corporates, to legislate against all competition from smaller firms.

    And all in all the support of the above from privileged people in the UK who are totally ignorant of this(wilfully?), call themselves progressives and leftists, just so they can feel morally abnd intellectually snobby whilst watching this exploitation go on, watching wages pushed down at the low end of the labour market, property and decent school places(worse, schools harder to run) more impossible to find, homelessness going through the roof, all whilst they live detached from it because of some nebulous notion of connection and anti 'provincialism', when in fact who the hell is just learning polish or czech and nipping over to work in a cafe for a few years, when English is the language of politics, trade, and science?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by richpanda)
    No it doesn't. It's just that most of us see ourselves as British first, rather than European first. I'm not surprised by your response 'Teutonic' Phil.

    As for the nonsense about being part of the EU to be European, I can't even be bothered to reply. That's the kind of nonsense that made people vote leave.
    The USA needs to join a union with Latin America to be American. It's no different logically to saying that.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Yes, nothing selfish and exploitative about Greece, the birthplace of civilization, being colonized by German banks. Or forcing your Euro dream and hence single currency on southern Europe which plunges them into poverty and mass unemployment. Or co-opting multitudes in Europe into collective foreign policy. Or forcing them into an arrogant, undemocratic institution that continually overrides and ignored the public vote and makes decisions and legislation with the unelected. Or an institution with a history of cosying up to, being lobbied by the banks and corporates, to legislate against all competition from smaller firms.
    Common yet completely unfounded, populist anti-European propaganda. You read the Daily Mail by any chance, and vote UKIP? Germany can not and does not force any country to do anything - we are not the EU, and every member state is free to join and leave the EU and the single-currency area. Your accusations are ridiculous and show a clear lack of intelligence and education.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And all in all the support of the above from privileged people in the UK who are totally ignorant of this(wilfully?), call themselves progressives and leftists, just so they can feel morally abnd intellectually snobby whilst watching this exploitation go on, watching wages pushed down at the low end of the labour market, property and decent school places(worse, schools harder to run) more impossible to find, homelessness going through the roof, all whilst they live detached from it because of some nebulous notion of connection and anti 'provincialism', when in fact who the hell is just learning polish or czech and nipping over to work in a cafe for a few years, when English is the language of politics, trade, and science?
    According to the referendum you must have A LOT of 'privileged' people...

    Leaving the EU will exacerbate ALL of the problems you mention, not cure them. Also, nice condescending comment there about fellow member states. A true nationalist speaking.

    I for one am pretty glad the referendum turned out the way it did and will gleefully watch your pathetic economy falter - and you not finding a job or having to accept a crappy one while virtually every German graduate finds a well-paid position.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Common yet completely unfounded, populist anti-European propaganda. You read the Daily Mail by any chance, and vote UKIP? Germany can not and does not force any country to do anything - we are not the EU, and every member state is free to join and leave the EU and the single-currency area. Your accusations are ridiculous and show a clear lack of intelligence and education.



    According to the referendum you must have A LOT of 'privileged' people...

    Leaving the EU will exacerbate ALL of the problems you mention, not cure them. Also, nice condescending comment there about fellow member states. A true nationalist speaking.

    I for one am pretty glad the referendum turned out the way it did and will gleefully watch your pathetic economy falter - and you not finding a job or having to accept a crappy one while virtually every German graduate finds a well-paid position.
    No, I don't read the Mail or vote UKIP, yawn. German banks capitalized on Greece. Fact. Free movement is bad for our social services and wages at the low end. Fact. The Euro is disastrous for southern Europe, unemployment is vast, Italy has gone from riches to poverty within it. Fact. You're glad our 'pathetic' economy will falter and I won't get a job? Ah, that Euro-solidarity you mention in action. Thanks Fritz. I think you'll find Germany isn't the economic promised land you believe it to be, it is benefiting immensely from the Eurozone and the poverty of Southern Europe of course, but Italy is going to lave the Euro, good for them, because it will all come crumbling down and I will return your laughter.
    Oh, and you are so utterly tedious with your crap about misinformation, as though no-one from remain is consuming a narrow spectrum of opinion, or bias, that is laughable. Why did the BBC not mention the 'economic expert' Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel winner, who backs Corbyn, Brexit, and opposed TTIP and says the Eurozone is a disaster? Hmm wonder why, a lot of people who don't support the globalist neo-liberalism get pilloried or ignored by the media. 'Lack of education' I think would translate as 'lack of indoctrination and independence of mind and living in a self-validating echo chamber our whole lives'. Formal education clearly does not make you immune from groupthink or indoctrination. You lecture people about solidarity and condescension and then speak as you do, it's unbelievable.
    It's yet another reason we f'ed you off.

    Oh, and another thing, it isn't condescending to note that English is the global language, and that it isn't very useful to learn Polish or Czech, and that no-one is doing that to interrupt their career. It is simply fact. Those in love with the Euro are so blind to objective facts like this.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Alright then, let me destroy your populist, nationalist, xenophobic, borderline embarrassing points one-by-one...

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    German banks capitalized on Greece. Fact.
    As did all other banks. If German banks got dis-proportionally more business out of it, then that's because they were smarter and quicker to react. Just a case of the Brits sleeping, as usual...

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Free movement is bad for our social services and wages at the low end. Fact.
    More than made up for by increased tax revenue - Britain wouldn't have enough qualified and willing workers to fill the lower-end jobs done by EU migrants... let alone the higher-end banking and consulting jobs done by EU migrants.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The Euro is disastrous for southern Europe, unemployment is vast, Italy has gone from riches to poverty within it. Fact.
    All this is despite the Euro, not because of it. Do some reading up on that.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You're glad our 'pathetic' economy will falter and I won't get a job? Ah, that Euro-solidarity you mention in action. Thanks Fritz.
    Well, you lot made your choice. You don't want to be in the EU, don't want to show solidarity. So now 200+ million people (including some very influential ones in Brussels and Berlin) hope you fail. You get what you wished for.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I think you'll find Germany isn't the economic promised land you believe it to be, it is benefiting immensely from the Eurozone...
    ... as is every other member state...

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    [...]and the poverty of Southern Europe of course,
    Nonsense. Rationale?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    [...]but Italy is going to lave the Euro, good for them, because it will all come crumbling down and I will return your laughter.
    Sure, keep dreaming. Italians may be daft sometimes, but they're nowhere near as daft as Brexiteers.


    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh, and you are so utterly tedious with your crap about misinformation, as though no-one from remain is consuming a narrow spectrum of opinion, or bias, that is laughable. Why did the BBC not mention the 'economic expert' Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel winner, who backs Corbyn, Brexit, and opposed TTIP and says the Eurozone is a disaster?
    Ah, so he is part of the .5% of reputable institutions, think-tanks and experts that predict that Brexit will be beneficial to Britain! Do you really want me to post the list of the other 99.5%? Really?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Hmm wonder why, a lot of people who don't support the globalist neo-liberalism get pilloried or ignored by the media. 'Lack of education' I think would translate as 'lack of indoctrination and independence of mind and living in a self-validating echo chamber our whole lives'. Formal education clearly does not make you immune from groupthink or indoctrination. You lecture people about solidarity and condescension and then speak as you do, it's unbelievable.
    http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/1202674...ted-brits-stay

    Are you seriously arguing that university-educated citizens generally do not base their referendum vote on a wider base of information, research, and opinion that lesser educated people?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh, and another thing, it isn't condescending to note that English is the global language, and that it isn't very useful to learn Polish or Czech, and that no-one is doing that to interrupt their career. It is simply fact.
    The way you phrased it was indeed very condescending. It is always useful to learn a foreign language, especially the ones of wonderful, rich-in-history countries like Poland or the Czech Republic - but I surely don't need to tell that to the British who are notoriously unwilling to and inept at learning foreign languages?

    What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Tri-lingual
    What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Bi-lingual
    What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? British
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Alright then, let me destroy your populist, nationalist, xenophobic, borderline embarrassing points one-by-one...



    As did all other banks. If German banks got dis-proportionally more business out of it, then that's because they were smarter and quicker to react. Just a case of the Brits sleeping, as usual...



    More than made up for by increased tax revenue - Britain wouldn't have enough qualified and willing workers to fill the lower-end jobs done by EU migrants... let alone the higher-end banking and consulting jobs done by EU migrants.



    All this is despite the Euro, not because of it. Do some reading up on that.



    Well, you lot made your choice. You don't want to be in the EU, don't want to show solidarity. So now 200+ million people (including some very influential ones in Brussels and Berlin) hope you fail. You get what you wished for.



    ... as is every other member state...



    Nonsense. Rationale?



    Sure, keep dreaming. Italians may be daft sometimes, but they're nowhere near as daft as Brexiteers.




    Ah, so he is part of the .5% of reputable institutions, think-tanks and experts that predict that Brexit will be beneficial to Britain! Do you really want me to post the list of the other 99.5%? Really?



    http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/1202674...ted-brits-stay

    Are you seriously arguing that university-educated citizens generally do not base their referendum vote on a wider base of information, research, and opinion that lesser educated people?



    The way you phrased it was indeed very condescending. It is always useful to learn a foreign language, especially the ones of wonderful, rich-in-history countries like Poland or the Czech Republic - but I surely don't need to tell that to the British who are notoriously unwilling to and inept at learning foreign languages?

    What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Tri-lingual
    What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Bi-lingual
    What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? British
    It's odd, isn't it how the EU and it's flag can never be nationalist or Xenophobic, or anti-American even, and yet every individual nation in Europe, who are to fall in line and be told whats what by Germany(With a bit of France thrown in), and their flags, can be by rejecting frau Merkel.

    So? it's still no good for Greece and Southern Europe to be in the Eurozone, that is basic economics you mug. To say that Southern Europe is in the disastrous state regarding unemployment, and lost wealth in Italy, 'despite the Euro' just epitomizes the haughty arrogance of EUphiles like you, you are so blind it's untrue.
    They have never suffered unemployment like that, and the EU obliterates more of their democracy and treats them with total arrogance -it is what's causing people to move to the extremes of politics, and people who think like you in the EU think the solution is more arrogant authoritarianism. You will fail, and you can insult us all you like. The EU is doomed and I would wager Italy will leave the Euro next. Oh, and of course your comment about 'daft sometimes' Italians leaving the foolish single currency wasn't condescending was it, by the way, whereas mine about English being the global language is just fact.
    I would be better off learning Mandarin or Hindi than any EU language, and yes I expect some little Europrat comment about how laughable that is, their contempt for the rest of the world and their own EU-phile provincialism is never far from their lips, plus their derision fro the commonwealth- don't worry, we know we are better than Germany.
    Oooh, 99% of experts said we should do something. So an 'expert' can never be biased by a conflict of interests? Only the most dishonest charlatan, or brainwashed fool would fail to accept this. I'm sure if I was betting against a gambling expert he would give me his expert advice on strategy.
    Do you think absolutely none of these bodies are assured of their funding by EU membership? When do 99% of people ever support something in a democracy? That's right, when it isn't one. Stiglitz is an independent economist who won nobel, he's right in that the only justification for the Euro can never be to those countries benefit- it is to try and enforce political union. It isn't working. The arrogance and high handedness of the Eurocrats is all over your post. That's why European peoples hate this thing in swathes and it is doomed.

    Listen to yourself, going on about condescension while you display nothing but. Trotting out your predictable smears about xenophobia. I guess Germany has none of that right, the country where a national sports star marrying a black woman is a scandal. The country where anti-semitism and neo-nazis still dwell. We are the most racially diverse and culturally diverse nation in Europe, we have been the greatest success in that regard. Our history is entirely different, global facing, and we founded the freest countries on earth. We are not leaving the EU to look inward, the EU is inward looking. Some Europeans hate this fact. We have ties on every corner of this globe. It is a culture and history people like you will never understand. We have a non-ethnic, non religious nationalism which many Europeans will never understand. Our future, I am happy to say, is divergent, and if you are 'willing us to fail', I couldn't care a toss, I'd rather have liberty and self-determination than false friends and authoritarianism and blackmail. Oh and actually many more Europeans than you would care to admit are on our side and hate the likes of you, and are waiting to be independent.

    How dare you call Brits xenophobic.. Your condescension in insufferable. So the formally educated voted for something, so what? It's called democracy because people vote according to a variety of interests and their own circumstances. It is reflective. It was never essential throughout history for the UK, or indeed many other European nations to be in such a regressive economic arrangement. And it doesn't go on anywhere else on earth. I'd take living in the likes of Canada(35mil) Australia(20mil), or Japan(127 mil) over the dubious benefits of the authoritarian superstate with a single foreign policy and the mythical gateway to the promised land the 'single market'. You are either an economic and philosophical ignoramus, or a person simply arguing nakedly in solely Germans self-interest.
    You remainers simply bleat the received economic wisdom of the day, because it suits your political agenda, and because there will be short term doubt.

    To lecture me about solidarity, as many EU-philes do, while the banks clean up and while democracy is continually ignored and while political extremes gather ground and while the Euro is a disaster, solely benefiting Germany and maybe a few Northeners, while they continually rubbish all of Britains history and the commonwealth(I know why this is-racial motives and jealousy) just won't wash with the British psyche. We are not going to be co-opted and demeaned in an abusive relationship. This was a temporary and shameful surrender by our worst generations of politicians ever. We have far more in common with the anglosphere than we ever will the EU.

    We have the backing of countless Europeans who are sick of being hectored by the globalists and told what they do and should think.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by slaven)
    UK has nothing in common with continental Europe. It is not even part of the continent. The British are Anglo-Saxon and it is naturall for them to stick with their other Anglo-Saxon brethren like USA, Canada or Australia.
    Why does that matter? Just because we are the same ethnicity doesn't mean we have more in common with them.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Lol at these people who say that British People are all Anglo-Saxon in origin. As if the vikings invading and William of Normandy had absolutely no impact upon the genetics of the current british population. Furthermore it is estimated by various sources that approximately 30% of the English language consists of words borrowed from French, and another 20-30% comes from Germanic borrowings. Culturally we are European as well as geographically. We just like to delude ourselves by proclaiming that we have an exclusive culture that has in no way mixed with any of our geographical neighbours. It is a ridiculous notion of sovereignty that comes from having delusions of grandeur propagated by the romantic flimsy ideology such as "Brexit will make the country great again."

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti..._British_Isles
    https://www.quora.com/How-much-Engli...ed-from-French
    http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words/loanwords.html
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_v...over_time.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...erman-ancestry

    TL;DR We are European. Our language, our genes and our culture show it. It is ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It's odd, isn't it how the EU and it's flag can never be nationalist or Xenophobic, or anti-American even, and yet every individual nation in Europe, who are to fall in line and be told whats what by Germany(With a bit of France thrown in), and their flags, can be by rejecting frau Merkel.
    How can the flag (or the idea) of a peaceful alliance of nations looking to build bridge and collaborate be nationalist? It's exclusive by definition.

    If you believe Germany (or France, or any other single nation, no matter how big or small) can dictate decisions or even directions in the EU, you clearly have no idea how its governing bodies work. I am not surprised.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So? it's still no good for Greece and Southern Europe to be in the Eurozone, that is basic economics you mug.
    It is basic economics to understand that it is advantageous to be in the Eurozone for these countries. Greece would be bankrupt now and in much, much worse shape had it not been in the EU or the Eurozone.

    And that classless insult bagged you a report to the admins.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    To say that Southern Europe is in the disastrous state regarding unemployment, and lost wealth in Italy, 'despite the Euro' just epitomizes the haughty arrogance of EUphiles like you, you are so blind it's untrue.
    No, it reflects economic and fiscal realities. You are so in denial, it's untrue.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    They have never suffered unemployment like that, and the EU obliterates more of their democracy and treats them with total arrogance -it is what's causing people to move to the extremes of politics, and people who think like you in the EU think the solution is more arrogant authoritarianism. You will fail, and you can insult us all you like.
    Their problems are structural and center around poor fiscal discipline as well as economic mismanagement. The EU is not arrogant, it's reminding and helping these countries get their **** in order. That is not authoritarianism, these are the rules that all member states signed up to comply with.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The EU is doomed and I would wager Italy will leave the Euro next.
    You'll lose that bet. Only because you stand alone, realising what a huge mistake you made, your economy and currency tanking, and you make out another country in trouble, won't make them do the same mistake - clearly the events of the past weeks alone will show Italy what that leads to.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh, and of course your comment about 'daft sometimes' Italians leaving the foolish single currency wasn't condescending, by the way, whereas mine about English being the global language is just fact.
    No, it was reflecting the stupendous mistakes its government made in the last years and decades. Your comment did not center around the language, it portrayed these countries as poor and inferior and unworthy of moving to and living in. The attitude of a true nationalist.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I would be better off learning Mandarin or Hindi than any EU language, and yes I expect some little Europrat comment about how laughable that is, their contempt for the rest of the world and their own EU-phile provincialism is never far from their lips.
    In pure economic terms, maybe. But it's unlikely you'll ever move there for a long time. And being European, learning a European language would open doors to better understanding a fellow European nation and your brothers and sister there. But of course a Brit would never adopt that view.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oooh, 99% of experts said we should do something. So an 'expert' can never be biased by a conflict of interests?
    Can 99% of experts, institutions, and think-tanks, including many not-for-profits (at least as independent as Stiglitz) and from places as far as Asia and America all have a conflict of interest?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Listen to yourself, going on about condescension while you display nothing but.
    Like I said, you well and truly earned that by your actions.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Trotting out your predictable smears about xenophobia. I guess Germany has none of that right, the country where a national sports star marrying a black woman is a scandal. The country where anti-semitism and neo-nazis still dwell. We are the most racially diverse and culturally diverse nation in Europe, we have been the greatest success in that regard. Our history is entirely different, global facing, and we founded the freest countries on earth.
    Yet your country just voted to leave a multi-cultural community on the back of a disgusting witch-hunt campaign run by openly xenophobic nationalists. Right-wing parties achieve polling numbers no such party in Germany will ever see. Racist and xenophobic violence sees record levels all across the country since the referendum. Racial inequality is rampant. Success, my ass.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We are not leaving the EU to look inward, the EU is inward looking. Some Europeans hate this fact. We have ties on every corner of this globe. It is a culture and history people like you will never understand. We have a non-ethnic, non religious nationalism which many Europeans will never understand.
    Ahhhh, here comes the Empire! Never takes too long to be mentioned! That unjust construct based on colonization, assimilation, and exploitation that used to give Britain relevance on the world stage. Long gone. Those 'ties' are nowadays mostly contempt towards Britain.

    Any sort of nationalism is poison.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh and actually many more Europeans than you would care to admit are on our side and hate the likes of you, and are waiting to be independent.
    Yup, a few million uneducated, small-minded, nationalistic xenophobes like you. I am glad they will wait forever.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    How dare you call Brits xenophobic, you are typical remain EU-phile pondlife.
    Your condescension in insufferable.
    Xenophobes deserve condescension, you know...

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So the formally educated voted for something, so what? It's called democracy because people vote according to a variety of interests and their own circumstances.
    Indeed, they voted for something they had en educated opinion about, taking into consideration a much broader set of factors that the knuckle-dragging, mout-breathing masses did. Doesn't that suggest a little that they maybe made the 'better' decision?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Condescending smug idiots like you want to obliterate it just so the enlightened can make decisions for everyone.
    I think referendums are a bad idea, yes. I'd rather have democratically elected representatives, who are smarter and more educated than me (and certainly than you) make these decisions for me, who do this for a living, know more about the subject, and have true experts to consult them.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It was never essential throughout history for the UK, or indeed many other European nations to be in such a regressive economic arrangement. And it doesn't go on anywhere else on earth. I'd take living in the likes of Canada(35mil) Australia(20mil), or Japan(127 mil) over the dubious benefits of the authoritarian superstate with a single foreign policy and the mythical gateway to the promised land the 'single market'.
    The EU is a fantastically ambitious and unique project that every European should be proud of to live and work in. No other trade pact -of which many exist- has reached the level of alignment, consensus, and sophistication of the EU. This is a triumph.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You are either an economic and philosophical ignoramus, or a person simply arguing nakedly in solely Germans self-interest. You remainers simply bleat the received economic wisdom of the day, because it suits your political agenda, and because there will be short term doubt.
    No, it's because we know the facts, take a long-term view, put the greater good above individual interests, and are generally not xenophobic.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    To lecture me about solidarity, as many EU-philes do, while the banks clean up and while democracy is continually ignored and while political extremes gather ground and while the Euro is a disaster, solely benefiting Germany and maybe a few Northeners, while they continually rubbish all of Britains history and the commonwealth(I know why this is-racial motives and jealousy) just won't wash with the British psyche. We are not going to be co-opted and demeaned in an abusive relationship. This was a temporary and shameful surrender by our worst generations of politicians ever.
    Where is democracy being ignored? Oh, it's undemocratic when democratically elected representatives -your fault that the EU elections had such a poor turn-out in Britain!- make decisions you don't see aligned with your national interests?

    The 'political extremes' are gathering ground because of people like you, taking extremist standpoints, fabricating nationalist narratives. The Euro is a success - as I said before, many countries would be in way worse shape without it.

    This abusive relationship - I think you confuse it with a relationship where Britain just negotiated a bad deal. Tough luck. Now you don't even sit at the tabe anymore. Imagine what deal you'll get now?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We have far more in common with the anglosphere than we ever will the EU.
    Ha! For this, see the article from my original post. In the US, you're nothing but a European nation, and not even the most important one. And what's left then? Canada? Oz and NZ? Enjoy doing big trade with those!

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We have the backing of countless Europeans who are sick of being hectored by the globalists, by smug myopic idiots like you, and told what they do and should think.
    Countless? You're having a laugh. A small minority, mostly made up of lowly educated xenophobes enticed by nationalist extremists with promises that they'd get their jobs back once the immigrants are gone. The fact that you stand united with these people speaks volumes about you.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    So basically what he's saying is that apparantly the 17m people who voted to leave had no idea what they were voting for, and if they do their views are not 'justfied'.
    Not quite. Yes, a large part 'had no idea' - a slightly inflammatory way of saying they were poorly informed or did not consider all aspects.

    The other part voted Leave for ulterior motives such as blind nationalistic pride, xenophobia, or racism.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    Isn't it possible to be nationalist, if you simply want a merger of countries to form a larger nation, e.g. Greater Germany (or in fact, Germany, as opposed to the individual German states), Great Britain, etc. For example, I like to think of myself as a pan-European nationalist, because I think Europe would be better off as a single nation.
    Hmm, interesting.

    Let's consider the simple definition by Merriam-Webster:

    : a feeling that people have of being loyal to and proud of their country often with the belief that it is better and more important than other countries

    : a desire by a large group of people (such as people who share the same culture, history, language, etc.) to form a separate and independent nation of their own


    If the EU ever were to become one single nation, then there could be nationalism within it. At the moment, the first definition doesn't apply though.

    The issue with the second part I see in the 'shared culture, history, language' bit. While we share elements of it, I am not sure we can say that we share all of it (definitely not language).

    But I am glad to see something resembling a fellow Europhile in here, so I won't be too strict - you may keep your pan-European nationalist badge
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Xenophobe, nationalist, xenophobe, nationalist. Do you have anything else? Oh and you've reported me for abuse, oh what a bad knuckle dragging racist I am, that's not unfounded abuse at all is it?


    We left a multicultural community? No we left an undemocratic supranational institution, we have a more multicultural community, and more proudly British one, than any European nation. Sorry.

    Oh and the assimilations and exploitations of empire, what about the Jews we helped and took from your sickening little regime, backed up by all the Quislings. We fought to prevent Europe continuing on that path, and for independence. No wonder you hate it all over again.

    There is nothing xenophobic about independence, that is a cheap smear used by the people who are in love with this project. You lecture me about solidarity with European brothers and sisters, taking presidence over India or the commonwealth, in the same breath as denouncing nationalism. Why should you dictate this to Brits? I'd rather experience working in Hong Kong or India or Canada than I would Germany, sorry son. I'd rather eat Dosa than Sauerkraut.

    Your vision is of European 'diversity'(which of course we could never have outside political union intent on homogenization right?), and not much else, while you view other parts of the world with condescension, even though they are all economically prospering moreso than the basket case Eurozone. All you have is the same self-satisfied insults and sneering of poncey remainers, that's why we can't stand you. I suppose you'd like to patronise all the patriotic leavers and campaigners from ethnic minorities too, and say that they have all voted for evil racists and are stupid. How dare you lecture the UK on morality and prissily complain about insults when all your responses have nothing but insults about racism, that have absolutely no substance to them. You are a disgrace. A cheap remain opportunist with your fear based, demeaning arguments to people from member states that may want independence.
    And you are talking arrogant rubbish about economics, history and economics bears out that Southern Europe would be better outside the Eurozone. They took bad fiscal decisions, so what? It has been made worse by the Eurozone, they have made bad fiscal decisions in the past and not had unemployment like that. They also have less, and will have increasingly less economic independence in an EU that has already taken so much, and want to take more, next is to harmonize tax policy. The behaviour of European elites over Lisbon, and their contempt for democracy is there for all to see. It is encapsulated in your attitude.

    Oh, and yes I am proud of empire, considerably more than fascism, I know some EU-philes(I say this because I am Europhile) hate that but maybe they are jealous or self-righteous.

    Every empire did bad things, we also did good things. Wilberforce abolished slavery, we created the freest countries on earth and left a legacy in terms of law and democracy.
    Many around the world are proud of the commonwealth, as I am. This of course, is bigotry, and probably xenophobia(Don't know how someone as interested by our Indian and Jamaican link can be xenophobic or racist but there you go)whereas your Eu-philes expansionism and contempt for it could never be, right?

    People who just refuse to accept a single criticism and are so quick to insult and patronise everyone as racists, and elites that refuse to listen to people are the reason why everyone just turns further away from this thing.

    You have no right to make baseless accusations of racism, it is an outrage, and I'm goad enough British people refused to accept it and stuck two fingers to autocracy, and smear-mongering.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by slaven)
    UK has nothing in common with continental Europe. It is not even part of the continent. The British are Anglo-Saxon and it is naturall for them to stick with their other Anglo-Saxon brethren like USA, Canada or Australia.
    So you are saying they are German?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by richpanda)
    Love Europe, hate the EU. I think many will agree with me on this.

    I do often see many people from the continent call themselves 'European' when 95% of Brits in the same context would call themselves British.
    And that is why I personally am not too unhappy about the result. All these selfish little wichtigtuer can **** right off
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Tri-lingual
    What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bi-lingual
    What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? British
    :hahaha:

    Owned.
 
 
 
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.