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    (Original post by inhuman)
    The proportion of EU immigrants within the NHS is the same as that of EU immigrants in the population*.

    Bang.

    One single fact completely destroys your ignorance. And why Leave are such shameless liars.

    Good night.

    *Doctors it's actually twice as high.
    Your logic is weak.

    Are you seriously going to ignore every person's suffering in that video, the NET figure of £34 million per day, the Single Market which obligates us to have uncontrolled immigration which is causing people to have delayed Doctor's appointments just because "The proportion of EU immigrants within the NHS is the same as that of EU immigrants in the population"?

    You are not looking at the country as a whole, but you are only looking at certain specific areas.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Your logic is weak.

    Are you seriously going to ignore every person's suffering in that video, the NET figure of £34 million per day, the Single Market which obligates us to have uncontrolled immigration which is causing people to have delayed Doctor's appointments just because "The proportion of EU immigrants within the NHS is the same as that of EU immigrants in the population"?

    You are not looking at the country as a whole, but you are only looking at certain specific areas.
    Let's ignore immigrants for a moment.
    Do you support increased government spending for the NHS and an end to PFI?

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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Your logic is weak.

    Are you seriously going to ignore every person's suffering in that video, the NET figure of £34 million per day, the Single Market which obligates us to have uncontrolled immigration which is causing people to have delayed Doctor's appointments just because "The proportion of EU immigrants within the NHS is the same as that of EU immigrants in the population"?

    You are not looking at the country as a whole, but you are only looking at certain specific areas.
    My logic is weak???????????????????????????? ????

    This video is about a single over-crowded NHS service. I completely destroyed the ignorant buffoons in that video regarding this very specific point. And you mention it again in this post.

    And now you tell I am "only looking at certain specific areas"?

    What the actual ****. Are you a troll pretending to be a complete muppet to make Brexiters look silly?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Can you provide more details. How much is spent on unnecessary bureaucracy? Can you point out which bits are unnecessary and why?
    The commissioning quango the Tories brought in
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    My logic is weak???????????????????????????? ????

    This video is about a single over-crowded NHS service. I completely destroyed the ignorant buffoons in that video regarding this very specific point. And you mention it again in this post.

    And now you tell I am "only looking at certain specific areas"?

    What the actual ****. Are you a troll pretending to be a complete muppet to make Brexiters look silly?
    Ok. But the fact is that British people are having delayed doctor appointments because of too much immigration.

    Lots of immigration requires more public services, more houses, more schools.

    Yes, the Conservative EU supporting government is causing this. But they are also giving lots of money towards the EU, and the Single Market is opening our borders to many many poor citizens which the EU is not supporting themselves.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Ok. But the fact is that British people are having delayed doctor appointments because of too much immigration.

    Lots of immigration requires more public services, more houses, more schools.

    Yes, the Conservative EU supporting government is causing this. But they are also giving lots of money towards the EU, and the Single Market is opening our borders to many many poor citizens which the EU is not supporting themselves.
    You're missing the point entirely. On average they pay in more in taxes than they take out in services so they're making a positive contribution to the economy.

    If all EU migrants(and their taxes) were removed from the equation it would be worse because there'd be less revenue to fund those public services and a larger budget deficit.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Ok. But the fact is that British people are having delayed doctor appointments because of too much immigration.

    Lots of immigration requires more public services, more houses, more schools.

    Yes, the Conservative EU supporting government is causing this. But they are also giving lots of money towards the EU, and the Single Market is opening our borders to many many poor citizens which the EU is not supporting themselves.
    No.

    I actually proved to you that that is not the cause. Immigrants increase demand on the NHS by the same proportion as they increase the supply of it. In fact, one might actually say they are improving it by more because the proportion of immigrant Drs. is twice the proportion of immigrants in the population.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Let's ignore immigrants for a moment.
    Do you support increased government spending for the NHS and an end to PFI?

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    Lets NOT ignore unlimited immigration.

    Thats the problem with people like you. You ignore our open borders to half a billion people.

    "If your population goes up, your GDP goes up. This isnt about GDP figures. This is about the fact that people cant get houses. Its about the fact that people cant get their kids into school. Its about the fact that their wages have gone down. Its about the fact that their communities have changed, in some cases beyond recognition. There are things that matter more than GDP figures, and quality of life DOES matter" - Nigel Farage :

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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    On average they pay in more in taxes than they take out in services so they're making a positive contribution to the economy.

    If all EU migrants(and their taxes) were removed from the equation it would be worse because there'd be less revenue to fund those public services and a larger budget deficit.
    Thats rubbish and false.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Lets NOT ignore unlimited immigration.

    Thats the problem with people like you. You ignore open borders to half a billion people.

    "If your population goes up, your GDP goes up. This isnt about GDP figures. This is about the fact that people cant get houses. Its about the fact that people cant get their kids into school. Its about the fact that their wages have gone down. Its about the fact that their communities have changed, in some cases beyond recognition. There are things that matter more than GDP figures, and quality of life DOES matter" - Nigel Farage :

    Should out government invest more in the NHS?

    People like you pretend to care about the NHS but you don't really, you just use it as a convenient stick to beat immigrants with.

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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Thats rubbish and false.
    How exactly?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Should out government invest more in the NHS?

    People like you pretend to care about the NHS but you don't really, you just use it as a convenient stick to beat immigrants with.

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    Of course we care about the NHS.

    We want to spend the NET figure of £34 million given to the EU each day to our communities instead + having the freedom of controlling our borders by leaving the single market and the EU.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Of course we care about the NHS.

    We want to spend the NET figure of £34 million given to the EU each day to our communities instead + having the freedom of controlling our borders by leaving the single market and the EU.
    So do you want our government to invest more into out NHS or not?
    Say we stop open borders and leave the single market, how much more should we invest in the NHS?

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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Thats rubbish and false.
    I see you stopped replying to me because I actually proved you wrong.

    And all your argument is "rubbish and false".

    That's really not convincing at all.

    Tell me, what made you hate immigrants so much? Also, did you study history? Making unashamed use of Godwin's law here, Hitler told the Germans that it was the Jews fault that their life is so *****y. Who told you that its the immigrants that make yours so *****y?
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Blame UK government for underfunding NHS. EU/Migrants only count for a little amount.
    It's not though. Every political party puts increasingly more, in real terms, into the NHS - sometimes a lot more. We've plunged incredible sums into the NHS.

    Unfortunately there's no standard of what a working healthcare system looks like. No matter how good it is, people will want and expect more. We spend millions on things like end-of-life treatment to extend the quality of patients' last few months - things that were inconceivable even a couple of decades ago. It's really quite incredible.

    Yet people inevitably want more, and the satisfied majority are drowned out by the minority who feel they're not getting what they want. People have to wait six hours in A&E? Well, to be honest, I don't think that's a big thing - if you come in with a relatively minor ailment, so be it - there's a four hour treatment target, but yes, some cases take longer to be seen. We triage these cases so the most appropriate get seen most quickly.

    We are also doing what we should - investing in non-emergency healthcare instead, which is cheaper and more effective. That's a positive thing.

    Sometimes the public even want things that are counterproductive. You hear masses of complaints when local A&Es close, despite the very well demonstrated improvements to care that are provided by having larger, more targeted - but often a bit more distant - trauma centres. Again, the NHS has to balance that.

    It's not a cash issue, it's one of expectations.
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    L i b

    Totally agree on A&E waiting times. If it's not urgent then people should stop whinging.
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    I think it's absolutely shocking that there are still people out there who buy into all the rhetoric and lies from the Leave campaign when all their deceit was exposed to the public after the referendum result. Anyone who seriously believes for a second that the funding we save from leaving the EU will go back into the NHS is an idiot. I'm surprised most people only realised that after Farage's interview the day after the referendum when those of us with a bit of common sense and who voted Remain, could see that coming a mile off. The government's mission to underfund, destabilise and demoralise the NHS will not change - that was already a huge problem way before the referendum was called. Now the government have control of that funding we saved, it's gonna go into keeping the economy stable and plugging the gaps created by all the EU funding we have lost. It's already common knowledge that we got a lot more in return from the EU than we paid into it. Not to mention that if we stay in the EEA, our borders will stay open and immigration will not change.

    I find it outrageous that anyone can believe the BS coming from the BNP - you do realise that most of the people they interviewed in that video are probably unemployed anyway and pay no tax? Therefore they don't have a right to keep banging on about "we pay into it" and "we get shoved to the end of the queue". Anyone with even a passing knowledge of immigrant culture would know that immigrants work extremely hard, live sensibly and contribute more to the economy than they take from it. There's no use blaming immigrants for a problem which was already rife for years before the Brexit debate started. The reporter himself acknowledges that it is a government problem, but it is way out of line to blame EU migrants when they have just as much right to be in this country as we do. If you want someone to blame for all the problems currently going on in the NHS - blame the Tory party, Jeremy Hunt, Health Education England and the Department of Health.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It's not though. Every political party puts increasingly more, in real terms, into the NHS - sometimes a lot more. We've plunged incredible sums into the NHS.

    Unfortunately there's no standard of what a working healthcare system looks like. No matter how good it is, people will want and expect more. We spend millions on things like end-of-life treatment to extend the quality of patients' last few months - things that were inconceivable even a couple of decades ago. It's really quite incredible.

    Yet people inevitably want more, and the satisfied majority are drowned out by the minority who feel they're not getting what they want. People have to wait six hours in A&E? Well, to be honest, I don't think that's a big thing - if you come in with a relatively minor ailment, so be it - there's a four hour treatment target, but yes, some cases take longer to be seen. We triage these cases so the most appropriate get seen most quickly.

    We are also doing what we should - investing in non-emergency healthcare instead, which is cheaper and more effective. That's a positive thing.

    Sometimes the public even want things that are counterproductive. You hear masses of complaints when local A&Es close, despite the very well demonstrated improvements to care that are provided by having larger, more targeted - but often a bit more distant - trauma centres. Again, the NHS has to balance that.

    It's not a cash issue, it's one of expectations.
    In the UK the solution far too often seems to be throw money at the situation and hope for the best, that said this Tory government isn't even doing that very well.

    Kings Fund report suggested any rise in NHS budget is significantly lower than predictions of what is actually necessary to keep pace with demand and mental health and adult social care have seen big cuts, with more cuts likely for local authorities that is only going to get worse.
    People need to be much smarter about how they use NHS services, especially A&E but equally the government need to accept responsibility for completely failing to get to grips with the problem and both not coming up with alternatives or where those alternatives are available not making people aware of them.

    While I'd be willing to conceede some people expect too much sometimes, I don't think that is the case here. The UK spends a relatively small amount of money on healthcare compared to other developed nations and rarely ranks particularly well when it comes to outcomes either.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    The proportion of EU immigrants within the NHS is the same as that of EU immigrants in the population*.

    Bang.

    One single fact completely destroys your ignorance. And why Leave are such shameless liars.

    Good night.

    *Doctors it's actually twice as high.
    (Original post by JamesN88)
    You're missing the point entirely. On average they pay in more in taxes than they take out in services so they're making a positive contribution to the economy.If all EU migrants(and their taxes) were removed from the equation it would be worse because there'd be less revenue to fund those public services and a larger budget deficit.
    Can you point me to where leave suggested we start deporting highly skilled immigrants?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The problem is that the government has underfunded the NHS. It's typical tory tactics, underfund and undermine the NHS then use its failures to argue it needs to be privatised.
    Yes it's the Tory's fault that's why real spending has increased under the Tory government since they took power from labour.
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