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    On average women earn less than men do. But when factors such as hours worked, job position, experience and qualifications are factored in, the gap drops well into single figures. The remainder is hard to quantify and may be due to things like differences in salary negotiations, productivity, requests for pay rises... And yes, discrimination is also a possibility.

    Some other interesting facts to consider are that women under 30 earn slightly more on average than men under thirty, and women who don't marry or have children earn about 95% of the average man's wage before anything else is even accounted for.

    Plus gender pay discrimination has been illegal for decades. Any employer engaging in it is risking a lawsuit.

    Nevertheless, the wage gap remains one of the biggest pieces of misinformation spread through the media, our education system, and even government.
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    (Original post by rob_theboss)
    My only contribution is to check out milo Yiannopoulos. He is someone he activly ridicules it.
    That's like telling someone to check out Donald Trump if they want an objective analysis on current American international relations.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...-less-uk-women The wage gap exists.
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    On average women earn less than men do. But when factors such as hours worked, job position, experience and qualifications are factored in, the gap drops well into single figures. The remainder is hard to quantify and may be due to things like differences in salary negotiations, productivity, requests for pay rises... And yes, discrimination is also a possibility.

    Some other interesting facts to consider are that women under 30 earn slightly more on average than men under thirty, and women who don't marry or have children earn about 95% of the average man's wage before anything else is even accounted for.

    Plus gender pay discrimination has been illegal for decades. Any employer engaging in it is risking a lawsuit.

    Nevertheless, the wage gap remains one of the biggest pieces of misinformation spread through the media, our education system, and even government.

    What a vague response. You first claim that yes, it is a fact tat on average there is a wage gap. You then venture to contend this 'fact' by points that make little sense. Salary negotiations, work hours, job level, these are factors that contribute to the wage gap, not negate it. It makes little sense for you to list these as factors that supposedly diminish the existence of a wage gap, when in fact these are factors that many claim uphold the wage gap. And don't even get me started on maternity/post-maternity leave.

    It is not so simple as gender pay discrimination being illegal, that is a hugely complex matter. It is certainly not a black and white 'it's illegal so it doesn't exist' matter. Which is why many leading lawyers get engaged in really difficult cases regarding gender discrimination. Finally, given the current state of the world and media, for you to suggest gender pay is the greatest misrepresentation is a bit of a joke.

    (Original post by doodle_333)
    There clearly is a gap if you just look at women vs. men but there are so many factors in pay that I think it's unlikely anyone has properly assessed whether identical women and men are paid differently. Those things include: leaving to have children, caring responsibilities, career sector choice, ambition and ability to negotiate for better pay.
    omg these are factors that UPHOLD the wage gap! PEOPLE

    educate yourselves before you give an opinion

    a simple google will show you that these factors have been discussed immensely, with an understanding that they contribute to/result from inequality.

    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    nope - it's perhaps the biggest myth of our time - it's a shameless tactic feminists advance to make it seem as if women don't get outperformed by most men - but being outperformed and hence paid less isn't "discrimination" on the grounds of gender. women are more likely to work part-time, more sociable hours, take more time off (be it maternity or holiday leave), take bigger breaks over their life (whereas men don't and hence have more work experience) etc - this causes men to usually be better workers, but feminists cannot have that truth being released because that would make their whole message fail.
    This applies to you as well. However, by stating that men are better workers than women, you really do rid yourself of any opportunity to be taken seriously.

    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    It does exist but not because of sexism.It's not a wage gap but an earnings gap.0It exists because women ( not all but in the main) freely choose to work fewer hours in lower paying less demanding fields.By simply comparing apples and oranges feminists try to show that the gap is down to sexism.This has been disproved countless times by economists and statisticians.
    You too.

    People, think, what does the gender wage gap mean? Take maternity leave, for many it is deemed unequal that women are still responsible for taking care of the child, therefore work fewer hours, leading you lot on here to deem men 'harder'/'better' workers. That's a gorgeous insight into the inequalities of the workplace right there. Try and think about society, and context, and WHY it is that certain people living in this society of ours are divided in these certain ways. Why do you regard men as harder workers? Why do you think they negotiate better?

    I say this in an attempt to get you to think a little bit, however, I reckon you'll come back at me with some pseudo evolutionary science and pop psychology.
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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    What a vague response. You first claim that yes, it is a fact tat on average there is a wage gap. You then venture to contend this 'fact' by points that make little sense. Salary negotiations, work hours, job level, these are factors that contribute to the wage gap, not negate it. It makes little sense for you to list these as factors that supposedly diminish the existence of a wage gap, when in fact these are factors that many claim uphold the wage gap. And don't even get me started on maternity/post-maternity leave.

    It is not so simple as gender pay discrimination being illegal, that is a hugely complex matter. It is certainly not a black and white 'it's illegal so it doesn't exist' matter. Which is why many leading lawyers get engaged in really difficult cases regarding gender discrimination. Finally, given the current state of the world and media, for you to suggest gender pay is the greatest misrepresentation is a bit of a joke.

    omg these are factors that UPHOLD the wage gap! PEOPLE

    educate yourselves before you give an opinion

    a simple google will show you that these factors have been discussed immensely, with an understanding that they contribute to/result from inequality.

    This applies to you as well. However, by stating that men are better workers than women, you really do rid yourself of any opportunity to be taken seriously.
    Are you seriously suggesting a company has to pay someone who has less experience, works less hours and because of these factors is lower down and they haven't negotiated a higher salary (why should a company be forced to pay you more than you want to accept?) should be paid the same as someone who has more experience and work longer hours?

    A man works on average 168 more hours a year than a woman, so just under 5 weeks, explain why someone who doesn't work these hours deserves to be paid for them?

    Companies also reward loyal productive staff members with pay rises are you suggesting they stop doing this so someone new to the company is earning exactly the same to the loyal staff member who knows the company's procedures better?

    It's pretty simple to reduce the difference caused because of negotiations the answer is negotiate men and women who negotiate get more those who don't get less the issue is people not doing it not companies paying people who do.

    I fully support giving men the same right to paternity leave do you or do you prefer to whine about the consequences of taking time off?
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    (Original post by thad33)
    I've read a few interesting things on this by people who know what they're talking about. The numbers show that for women who decide not to have children earn 13% more than men for same age and career progression.

    I'll double check if I can find the source again.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    The problem lies in the "women who decide to not have children"
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Are you seriously suggesting a company has to pay someone who has less experience, works less hours and because of these factors is lower down and they haven't negotiated a higher salary (why should a company be forced to pay you more than you want to accept?) should be paid the same as someone who has more experience and work longer hours?

    A man works on average 168 more hours a year than a woman, so just under 5 weeks, explain why someone who doesn't work these hours deserves to be paid for them?

    Companies also reward loyal productive staff members with pay rises are you suggesting they stop doing this so someone new to the company is earning exactly the same to the loyal staff member who knows the company's procedures better?

    It's pretty simple to reduce the difference caused because of negotiations the answer is negotiate men and women who negotiate get more those who don't get less the issue is people not doing it not companies paying people who do.

    I fully support giving men the same right to paternity leave do you or do you prefer to whine about the consequences of taking time off?
    You misunderstand the point I am making. I am not suggesting that individual companies pay women who work less hours the same salary as men who work more hours. The imbalance of pay, on paper, seems logical. What I am talking about is the structures of society that enable men to focus on work meanwhile inhibiting the livelihood of women. You, and the other guys I quoted who literally gave reasons that many see as causing a pay gap as reasons why they believe the gap doesn't exist (lol), need to look at the bigger picture.

    As for your fourth paragraph, I can't make sense of it (?).

    I fully support the right for men to have paternity leave. If you had a little think about what I was saying (why are women not able to do the same hours as men and dedicate themselves to work as much as men supposedly do) you would have known that. Instead you made a lil snide remark abut me whining that makes literally no sense. But hey, you got the word whine in there. The age old trick, diminish what a woman is saying by claiming she's at it again. Whinging whining wailing.
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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    You misunderstand the point I am making. I am not suggesting that individual companies pay women who work less hours the same salary as men who work more hours. The imbalance of pay, on paper, seems logical. What I am talking about is the structures of society that enable men to focus on work meanwhile inhibiting the livelihood of women. You, and the other guys I quoted who literally gave reasons that many see as causing a pay gap as reasons why they believe the gap doesn't exist (lol), need to look at the bigger picture.

    As for your fourth paragraph, I can't make sense of it (?).

    I fully support the right for men to have paternity leave. If you had a little think about what I was saying (why are women not able to do the same hours as men and dedicate themselves to work as much as men supposedly do) you would have known that. Instead you made a lil snide remark abut me whining that makes literally no sense. But hey, you got the word whine in there. The age old trick, diminish what a woman is saying by claiming she's at it again. Whinging whining wailing.
    The negotiation problem can be stopped by women negotiating more.

    Men and women who don't miss out on extra pay.

    It was a genuine question most people who I have talked to about the effects of maternity leave haven't backed the same when it comes to men. You blame society when it is a 2 way street men would like to play a bigger role in their children's lives but are denied that opportunity because their partners expect them to earn the money.

    I didn't use that word because of your gender, you can stop playing the victim.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    The negotiation problem can be stopped by women negotiating more.

    Men and women who don't miss out on extra pay.

    It was a genuine question most people who I have talked to about the effects of maternity leave haven't backed the same when it comes to men.
    'The negotiation problem can be stopped by women negotiating more.' Lol. Yes. The debate is why women don't. Obviously. Come on man.

    I have yet to come across a person who believes that men should not have paternity leave. But hang on here, what's the relevance? Are you claiming that the fact that you have met some people who disagree with paternity leave somehow lessens the existence of a wage gap?

    ' It was a genuine question most people who I have talked to about the effects of maternity leave haven't backed the same when it comes to men. You blame society when it is a 2 way street men would like to play a bigger role in their children's lives but are denied that opportunity because their partners expect them to earn the money.I didn't use that word because of your gender, you can stop playing the victim.'

    Of course it is a two way street. Did I ever mention that men are to blame and that they are of pure benefit? No. Once again, you are not denying the existence of a wage gap by claiming that men suffer from it also. You are actually reinforcing the existence of one. I am not the victim here, I am merely highlighting to you that it is weak of you to claim someone who disagrees with you is 'whining'. But once again, we've hit the key phrase of anti-feminists....'playing the victim'.
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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    'The negotiation problem can be stopped by women negotiating more.' Lol. Yes. The debate is why women don't. Obviously. Come on man.

    I have yet to come across a person who believes that men should not have paternity leave. But hang on here, what's the relevance? Are you claiming that the fact that you have met some people who disagree with paternity leave somehow lessens the existence of a wage gap?
    Why don't they? The research that says they get a negative response also shows the tactics that are generally best for them to negotiate.

    I'm not talking about having some paternity leave I mean equal paternity leave.
    I'm saying when people are against men taking the same time off and losing out on the same experience they can't complain about the fact that women who have the choice and decide take the time off lose out on the work experience they would have gained otherwise which leads to the pay differences, there isn't a chart on the wall that says this woman has taken maternity leave its time to cut her wages it's the affect of the time they miss.

    You're right I am against a discriminatory hate group that claims to want equality while wanting to destroy the rule of law and move away from a meritocracy, I prefer egalitarians myself.

    I'm treating you like I would anyone else on this issue but you see that as a attack because of your gender, would you prefer me to change my approach to you just because you are female?
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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    What a vague response. You first claim that yes, it is a fact tat on average there is a wage gap. You then venture to contend this 'fact' by points that make little sense. Salary negotiations, work hours, job level, these are factors that contribute to the wage gap, not negate it. It makes little sense for you to list these as factors that supposedly diminish the existence of a wage gap, when in fact these are factors that many claim uphold the wage gap. And don't even get me started on maternity/post-maternity leave.

    It is not so simple as gender pay discrimination being illegal, that is a hugely complex matter. It is certainly not a black and white 'it's illegal so it doesn't exist' matter. Which is why many leading lawyers get engaged in really difficult cases regarding gender discrimination.
    The common assertion is that women are paid less for the same work. They aren't (which I explained). And if a woman wants to put in more hours, do a degree in a STEM field, not have kids and not take months off work (and still get paid), or push for a higher salary, she can.

    But has it even occurred to you that these are simply lifestyle choices that women are making? That women are actually quite happy having kids, getting married, and working the hours and jobs that they do? Even women who run their own business take home less. And job satisfaction actually tends to be higher for women on average.

    Anyhow, the women who don't want to marry and have kids, for example, go on to earn around the same as men do on average. No glass ceiling or patriarchal oppression for these chicks, oddly.

    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    Finally, given the current state of the world and media, for you to suggest gender pay is the greatest misrepresentation is a bit of a joke.
    *One of*
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    The common assertion is that women are paid less for the same work. They aren't (which I explained). And if a woman wants to put in more hours, do a degree in a STEM field, not have kids and not take months off work (and still get paid), or push for a higher salary, she can.

    But has it even occurred to you that these are simply lifestyle choices that women are making? That women are actually quite happy having kids, getting married, and working the hours and jobs that they do? Even women who run their own business take home less. And job satisfaction actually tends to be higher for women on average.

    Anyhow, the women who don't want to marry and have kids, for example, go on to earn around the same as men do on average. No glass ceiling or patriarchal oppression for these chicks, oddly.



    *One of*
    A key piece of evidence to back this up would be the STEM researchers gap in Mongolia it is only 2% and in Sweden where women are better off and have a wider range of possible lifestyle choices it is 26%.

    http://www.uis.unesco.org/_LAYOUTS/UNESCO/women-in-science/index.html#details!lang=en&view= map&region=40500&country=SWE&pan el=pipeline
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    A key piece of evidence to back this up would be the STEM researchers gap in Mongolia it is only 2% and in Sweden where women are better off and have a wider range of possible lifestyle choices it is 26%.

    http://www.uis.unesco.org/_LAYOUTS/UNESCO/women-in-science/index.html#details!lang=en&view= map&region=40500&country=SWE&pan el=pipeline
    Feminists be like:

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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    omg these are factors that UPHOLD the wage gap! PEOPLE

    educate yourselves before you give an opinion

    a simple google will show you that these factors have been discussed immensely, with an understanding that they contribute to/result from inequality.
    so self righteous - I was clearly saying they cause the wage gap? however this doesn't mean it's a case of discrimination against women (i.e. identical men and women are paid differently) but rather due to the fact women are more likely to choose a low paid industry which then means when children and other caring responsibilities come up, of course they take time off for them because they get paid less and have fewer opportunities for promotion anyway DUE TO THEIR OWN CHOICES

    and don't tell me women are socialised out of STEM because that's really not the case anymore, men may still be discouraged from some 'girly' jobs but STEM is accessible to everyone and there is a lot of encouragement for girls (I've taken girls on female specific trips to discuss STEM careers)
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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    This applies to you as well. However, by stating that men are better workers than women, you really do rid yourself of any opportunity to be taken seriously.
    do you want me to tell you what the word "usually" means? becauyse I said they *usually* are better workers.
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    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    What a vague response. You first claim that yes, it is a fact tat on average there is a wage gap. You then venture to contend this 'fact' by points that make little sense. Salary negotiations, work hours, job level, these are factors that contribute to the wage gap, not negate it. It makes little sense for you to list these as factors that supposedly diminish the existence of a wage gap, when in fact these are factors that many claim uphold the wage gap. And don't even get me started on maternity/post-maternity leave.
    Those factors explain why there is a wage gap and serve to dispel the great feminist myth that its born out of sexism. Don't get you started on post maternity leave? You think a woman should come back and expect to be paid the same as a man despite having a year's less experience?

    (Original post by SophiaNeuning)
    It is not so simple as gender pay discrimination being illegal, that is a hugely complex matter. It is certainly not a black and white 'it's illegal so it doesn't exist' matter. Which is why many leading lawyers get engaged in really difficult cases regarding gender discrimination. Finally, given the current state of the world and media, for you to suggest gender pay is the greatest misrepresentation is a bit of a joke.
    What do you mean by 'leading lawyers'? More accurately put, the gender pay gap is the biggest misrepresentation made by feminists other than perhaps 'rape culture'.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    The negotiation problem can be stopped by women negotiating more.

    Men and women who don't miss out on extra pay.

    It was a genuine question most people who I have talked to about the effects of maternity leave haven't backed the same when it comes to men. You blame society when it is a 2 way street men would like to play a bigger role in their children's lives but are denied that opportunity because their partners expect them to earn the money.

    I didn't use that word because of your gender, you can stop playing the victim.
    As hinted at in my previous post, our arrangement was that my husband would be the one staying at home as my salary was so much higher than his. Unfortunately, when it came down to it he absolutely refused to do it because (in his words), it reflected badly on his masculinity and he would be the laughing stock amongst his friends.

    I was then put into the position of having to leave my very successful career (this was before year long maternity leave rights and extended payments, I had to go back only a short few weeks after delivery as our son was post term) as the costs involved in child care to cover my extended hours (I was management level) was prohibitive and at that time, rather difficult to come by.

    Re negotiation, I was a master at that, hence my salary level compared to husband's.
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    I don't get the massive furor here, as both sides can co-exist.

    The stats presented are correct: women doing the same work, in the same place, at the same level of experience, with the same hours, are NOT paid less to any meaningful extent. In this regards the gender wage gap doesn't exist.

    However, what the stats don't do is qualitatively assess what drives women to make the decisions - maternity leave, less overtime, fewer negotiations, and even different choices of working sectors - which ultimately result in them earning less on average less than men. Feminism offers one qualitative analysis of the forces behind this data, of many.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    A key piece of evidence to back this up would be the STEM researchers gap in Mongolia it is only 2% and in Sweden where women are better off and have a wider range of possible lifestyle choices it is 26%.

    http://www.uis.unesco.org/_LAYOUTS/UNESCO/women-in-science/index.html#details!lang=en&view= map&region=40500&country=SWE&pan el=pipeline
    Anyone have a stab at explaining the Nordic Gender Paradox as pointed out by Joe above?
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    Anyone have a stab at explaining the Nordic Gender Paradox as pointed out by Joe above?
    24 hrs later.....no surprise there then.
 
 
 
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