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Has my daughter got more chance of getting into Oxford or Cambridge for Law? Watch

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    (Original post by MJ6987)
    Thanks everyone, I've passed your comments on
    I've merged your 2 threads into one

    And good luck to your daughter
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Source?

    I ask because you can see from this chart they do give a significant number of offers below 90% average UMS even for Law.


    Although, for sure, the chances improve with higher UMS. But note, not everyone who gets >95 gets an offer...

    UMS averages are actually not important for Cambridge. They look at the application in a lot more detail than just an average.

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    I read it once on Cambridge's website (albeit for Economics), and it said something along the lines of "success is unlikely if you're UMS average is below 90%".

    Oh yeah I never said getting >95 would get you an offer at all, and I did say it's not impossible to get one with <90, but every point you are below that threshold you're fighting an increasingly uphill battle. Just look at it from their perspective: if you can't get 90 or more at AS, are you really likely to attain the A* in their offer when A2 is usually harder than AS? Good admission test and interview results are of course an important way to make up for that, but OP asked which they were more likely to get into so purely based on the fact that they don't ask for UMS at all I said Oxford>Cambridge.
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    (Original post by JRKinder)
    I read it once on Cambridge's website (albeit for Economics), and it said something along the lines of "success is unlikely if you're UMS average is below 90%".

    Oh yeah I never said getting >95 would get you an offer at all, and I did say it's not impossible to get one with <90, but every point you are below that threshold you're fighting an increasingly uphill battle. Just look at it from their perspective: if you can't get 90 or more at AS, are you really likely to attain the A* in their offer when A2 is usually harder than AS? Good admission test and interview results are of course an important way to make up for that, but OP asked which they were more likely to get into so purely based on the fact that they don't ask for UMS at all I said Oxford>Cambridge.
    Note, from the chart I uploaded, the number of Law applicants getting offers with UMS <90 is actually greater than the number with >95

    And fundamentally, as Peterhouse said, the real point is to pick the right course, not so much the admissions process.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Note, from the chart I uploaded, the number of Law applicants getting offers with UMS <90 is actually greater than the number with >95

    And fundamentally, as Peterhouse said, the real point is to pick the right course, not so much the admissions process.
    Dodgy maths, there are more people applying than those who have >95. The % of those with >95 being successful is far higher than those <90.

    But yeah, that's a fair statement.
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    (Original post by JRKinder)
    Dodgy maths, there are more people applying than those who have >95. The % of those with >95 being successful is far higher than those <90.

    But yeah, that's a fair statement.
    No dodgy maths needed. I didn't say percentages, I was referring to absolute numbers

    I also said earlier that higher UMS is "a good thing". But again, not the only thing...

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    At Oxford, its all about the entrance exam and interview.
    At Cambridge, its all about getting good marks at AS and also the interview.

    So its a decision of whether or not you think she can prepare well for the corresponding law entrance exam at Oxford, or whether her UMS is close to 90% on average. I wouldn't worry about GCSEs and Oxford, they will reject straight-up you if you get 12 A*s and do badly on the entrance exam, so the opposite situation isn't unlikely - being that they let you in if you do well in the entrance exam with average GCSEs.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    No dodgy maths needed. I didn't say percentages, I was referring to absolute numbers

    I also said earlier that higher UMS is "a good thing". But again, not the only thing...

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    Percentages are more useful than absolute numbers for rating your chance of success...

    Yep, again that's a fair statement. In my experience they care much more about your interview and admissions test results than A levels, if you've had a flawless interview they won't turn you away on account that you got 87 rather than 93 at A level
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    (Original post by MJ6987)
    Thanks everyone, I've passed your comments on
    And just in case you haven't seen it, here's more info about the Cambridge Law Test

    http://ba.law.cam.ac.uk/applying/cambridge_law_test/

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    Be very careful with Oxford. I believe that their shortlisting depends heavily on GCSE scores, where they expect something similar to 70% of your GCSE grades to be A* to make the cut.
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    (Original post by Fred5134)
    Be very careful with Oxford. I believe that their shortlisting depends heavily on GCSE scores, where they expect something similar to 70% of your GCSE grades to be A* to make the cut.
    Where have you got this from?

    Oxford's own website says:

    "We do not have any specific requirements for GCSE grades, though higher grades can help to make your application more competitive. Successful applicants typically have a high proportion of A and A* grades.Where possible, tutors will be made aware of the overall GCSE performance of the school or college where you studied. They will also have information on how you have performed compared with other Oxford applicants at similar schools"

    I have also got a book called "Oxbridge Entrance: the Real Rules". This says:

    "When it comes to GCSE grades, allowances are again made for the type of school: over half of a state school candidate's grades should be As or A*s, the rest Bs, with perhaps the odd C in a practical subject. Those sitting the exam in the private sector should aim for at least As"

    If the above are correct, then I would have thought that my daughter's grades obtained in a state school, together with the fact that they were the best in her year, would be sufficient.

    If not, and you are indeed correct, then there may be no point her applying.
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    I contacted them a while back concerning the GCSE requirements for medicine, and they said something along those lines. Medicine is not law, but law is quite similar in its high requirements. My advice to you would be to contact their admissions team directly by email and ask them
    1) if a competitive application could be made if 40% of the GCSES are A*, 50% are A, and 10% are B. Include the information about the state school too,
    2) If such a % of A+ grades would significantly disadvantage her during the shortlisting process

    and see what they tell you. Be on guard if they give you vague answers that don't answer the question.
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    (Original post by Fred5134)
    I contacted them a while back concerning the GCSE requirements for medicine, and they said something along those lines. Medicine is not law, but law is quite similar in its high requirements. My advice to you would be to contact their admissions team directly and ask them
    1) if a competitive application could be made if 40% of the GCSES are A*, 50% are A, and 10% are B. Include the information about the state school too,
    2) If such a % of A+ grades would significantly disadvantage her during the shortlisting process

    and see what they tell you.
    Good idea, I will do! Thanks
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    (Original post by MJ6987)
    Where have you got this from?

    Oxford's own website says:

    "We do not have any specific requirements for GCSE grades, though higher grades can help to make your application more competitive. Successful applicants typically have a high proportion of A and A* grades.Where possible, tutors will be made aware of the overall GCSE performance of the school or college where you studied. They will also have information on how you have performed compared with other Oxford applicants at similar schools"

    I have also got a book called "Oxbridge Entrance: the Real Rules". This says:

    "When it comes to GCSE grades, allowances are again made for the type of school: over half of a state school candidate's grades should be As or A*s, the rest Bs, with perhaps the odd C in a practical subject. Those sitting the exam in the private sector should aim for at least As"

    If the above are correct, then I would have thought that my daughter's grades obtained in a state school, together with the fact that they were the best in her year, would be sufficient.

    If not, and you are indeed correct, then there may be no point her applying.
    Ask Brasenose AT, they are very helpful about Oxford admissions questions. Unfortunately I can't tag them on the app.

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    Any advice? See OP. Generally or specifically about the GCSE grades?

    Thanks.
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    (Original post by Fred5134)
    I contacted them a while back concerning the GCSE requirements for medicine, and they said something along those lines. Medicine is not law, but law is quite similar in its high requirements. My advice to you would be to contact their admissions team directly by email and ask them
    1) if a competitive application could be made if 40% of the GCSES are A*, 50% are A, and 10% are B. Include the information about the state school too,
    2) If such a % of A+ grades would significantly disadvantage her during the shortlisting process

    and see what they tell you. Be on guard if they give you vague answers that don't answer the question.
    I think you have said it, medicine isn't law. Medicine is the outlier. Oxford medicine's shortlisting system, whilst not totally mechanistic, does apply a formula to GCSE results. https://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/study/me...cal/statistics No other subject at Oxford does this.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Ask Brasenose AT, they are very helpful about Oxford admissions questions. Unfortunately I can't tag them on the app.

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    You don't need to tag us - just mention our name and we are summoned (its BrasenoseAdm btw).

    We posted some general guidance on GCSEs on the main 2017 applications thread. For Law, 50% of applicants interviewed fall into the range of 7 to 10 A*s but remember that GCSEs are put into context (ie compared with the results of the school attended) and that Law selectors also have the benefit of the LNAT result. We would advise the UCAS referee noting the extenuating circumstances set out in the original post too.

    On choosing the right Law course, while reasonable adjustments will be made in response to learning needs, it is worth bearing in mind that assessment of Law at Oxford currently takes the form of traditional exams. These are taken after two Terms ("Mods" - the qualifying exam) and there are nine papers ("Finals" taken sequentially one day after another. We would suggest discussing scope for reasonable adjustments with the Disability Advisory Service and comparing what they say with alternative courses that feature a different mix of continuous assessment and forms of examination so that an informed choice can be made.
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    (Original post by BrasenoseAdm)
    You don't need to tag us - just mention our name and we are summoned (its BrasenoseAdm btw).

    We posted some general guidance on GCSEs on the main 2017 applications thread. For Law, 50% of applicants interviewed fall into the range of 7 to 10 A*s but remember that GCSEs are put into context (ie compared with the results of the school attended) and that Law selectors also have the benefit of the LNAT result. We would advise the UCAS referee noting the extenuating circumstances set out in the original post too.

    On choosing the right Law course, while reasonable adjustments will be made in response to learning needs, it is worth bearing in mind that assessment of Law at Oxford currently takes the form of traditional exams. These are taken after two Terms ("Mods" - the qualifying exam) and there are nine papers ("Finals" taken sequentially one day after another. We would suggest discussing scope for reasonable adjustments with the Disability Advisory Service and comparing what they say with alternative courses that feature a different mix of continuous assessment and forms of examination so that an informed choice can be made.
    Thanks for dropping in and your reply. I'll let the OP respond...

    (Yes, I just knew I was wrong about your exact username! )
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    (Original post by BrasenoseAdm)
    You don't need to tag us - just mention our name and we are summoned (its BrasenoseAdm btw).

    We posted some general guidance on GCSEs on the main 2017 applications thread. For Law, 50% of applicants interviewed fall into the range of 7 to 10 A*s but remember that GCSEs are put into context (ie compared with the results of the school attended) and that Law selectors also have the benefit of the LNAT result. We would advise the UCAS referee noting the extenuating circumstances set out in the original post too.

    On choosing the right Law course, while reasonable adjustments will be made in response to learning needs, it is worth bearing in mind that assessment of Law at Oxford currently takes the form of traditional exams. These are taken after two Terms ("Mods" - the qualifying exam) and there are nine papers ("Finals" taken sequentially one day after another. We would suggest discussing scope for reasonable adjustments with the Disability Advisory Service and comparing what they say with alternative courses that feature a different mix of continuous assessment and forms of examination so that an informed choice can be made.
    Thanks very much for the reply. My daughter has just had a reply from the Admissions Tutor at the Oxford college that she is interested in (LMH) - she had detailed her GCSE results and the fact that these were the best at her state comprehensive (although she didn't mention the extenuating circumstances). The reply was very positive and encouraged her to apply, although they did also say that the LNAT is a key criterion for interview selection.

    To your other point, she actually prefers exams to continuous assessment - she seems to have very effective and focused revision methods.

    The other thing I was wondering is whether there is any way to work out whether her application is likely to be "flagged for contextual data" as per the Oxford website it would then be "strongly recommended" that she be invited to interview. She was successful in getting onto the Oxford Uniq Summer School (Law) which seemed to look at similar criteria (GCSEs vs school averages, postcode data, etc) so I think she might be. By the way she loved the Summer School - "best week of her life"!

    Thanks
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    (Original post by MJ6987)
    Thanks very much for the reply. My daughter has just had a reply from the Admissions Tutor at the Oxford college that she is interested in (LMH) - she had detailed her GCSE results and the fact that these were the best at her state comprehensive (although she didn't mention the extenuating circumstances). The reply was very positive and encouraged her to apply, although they did also say that the LNAT is a key criterion for interview selection.

    To your other point, she actually prefers exams to continuous assessment - she seems to have very effective and focused revision methods.

    The other thing I was wondering is whether there is any way to work out whether her application is likely to be "flagged for contextual data" as per the Oxford website it would then be "strongly recommended" that she be invited to interview. She was successful in getting onto the Oxford Uniq Summer School (Law) which seemed to look at similar criteria (GCSEs vs school averages, postcode data, etc) so I think she might be. By the way she loved the Summer School - "best week of her life"!

    Thanks
    You are welcome!

    This prompts us to add that if GCSEs are in the top 5-10% for the year group, then whatever the A* total happens to be (or the % of A*s) an application should certainly be considered.

    Candidates are flagged overall if they have ever been in care or if both of these criteria are met: the school attended has below average attainment levels and the place of residence has above average levels of deprivation and/or lower than average progression rates to higher education.

    You can read more about Oxford's approach to contextual data here:
    https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/unde...al-data?wssl=1
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    And Cambridge's contextual info is here:
    http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.a...ontextual-data

    and this is relevant too
    http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.a...umstances-form
 
 
 
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