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Would you agree to Britain invading Egypt to protect Ancient Egyptian monuments? Watch

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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    I don't support mindless bloodshed, as I explicitly said in my post if you'd actually bother to read it properly. I don't see preserving the heritage of the world as pointless. Obviously you do, and that is something we're clearly just going to differ on. That doesn't mean you need to start resorting to ad hominem comments though. In my opinion it's not "other people's historical heritage". It's the historical heritage of humanity, and is just as important to me as Stonehenge, Westminster Abbey or any other British landmark you care to mention.

    The mentality of "us" and "them" that you seem to have to me is frankly disgusting. Our lives and our heritage are worth no more than theirs. Some defenceless baby in Syria has as much right to a life and a cultural identity as my next door neighbours does.
    I think you've misunderstood the OP, this hypothetical war isn't over egyptian lives, it's over some ancient monuments built on the blood, sweat and tears of forced labour. Such a testament to human cruelty is hardly worth preserving in my view except to maybe educate future generations over the cruelty of slavery. However, the monuments of Egypt aren't used in that way, therefore, whilst I would agree that it would be a loss to loose them, I don't consider them to be worth more than any human life really.

    Your mentality of spilling blood is abhorrent to me, I wouldn't want to lose blood of any person over the Pyramids of Egypt. You were also the first here to start with the ad-hominems so don't now try and act like the morally superior one. Maybe you would be fine with loosing family members for the sake of Egyptian cultural heritage, but I'm not. I have no spiritual or religious commonality with the people of Egypt and neither does the vast majority of the British population.
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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    Have you actually read any of my comments? I've stated I don't think any nation should start a conflict in Egypt, but that UN guards for sites of interest could be an option if they were at risk. I stated that sites such as Petra, or Palmyra, as just as worthy of preservation as the pyramids, and finally I've said if the people of those areas are willing to fight to defend them we should be willing to help, not that we should be forcing ourselves upon them.

    You can call my mindset retarded all you want, all it shows is that you don't poses any real conviction with your argument, and that you haven't actually read my posts.
    my bad i thought you were a new person, still your mindset is retarded, when your trying to say ARH's is wrong and putting their view down, when theyre pretty much saying life is worth more than anything. how you can think your view is right over theres, boggles the mind. this is teh thing, i can understand both your views, but i dislike it when someone tries to claim their view is 100% right and others are wrong, when to a sane person, your is just so plainly wrong and the ARH makes so much more sense.

    so a MSG from peopel with common sense, we support the ARH not your views. G'day
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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    At what point is it our business? When they sack Istanbul? When the Eiffel Tower gets torn down? What about when the houses of parliament fall? It's not in my town, why should I care?

    The mentality of people such as yourself really confuses me. This world is my home, all of it, and I would want to see as much of it's character and history preserved as possible.
    You can think the world is your home, but it really isn't. You own nothing except the house you live in now. The Egyptians don't give a **** if you care about protecting their ancient monuments and history. Stop thinking Britain has to be the police of this world in almost every affair there is, just let the Egyptians sort out their own problems IF it were to come to that. Which is very very unlikely.

    You know who else had this sort of mentality? Tony Blair supporters. Look how that turned out.
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    (Original post by rimstone)
    my bad i thought you were a new person, still your mindset is retarded, when your trying to say ARH's is wrong and putting their view down, when theyre pretty much saying life is worth more than anything. how you can think your view is right over theres, boggles the mind. this is teh thing, i can understand both your views, but i dislike it when someone tries to claim their view is 100% right and others are wrong, when to a sane person, your is just so plainly wrong and the ARH makes so much more sense.

    so a MSG from peopel with common sense, we support the ARH not your views. G'day
    You say you dislike when someone thinks their views are right and someone else is 100% wrong, then go on to say you think I'm 100% wrong... Real smooth. I never said I thought he was 100% wrong either; of course I can see an argument for what is essentially the value of information vs the value of life, I was simply putting my point of view across. It's what you normally do in discussions.

    Often people manage it without calling the other parties retarded, but hey ho, as I say, all it shows is a lack of conviction. If you really believed in your point of view you wouldn't feel the need to back it up with personal insults.
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    (Original post by MedioCentro97)
    You can think the world is your home, but it really isn't. You own nothing except the house you live in now. The Egyptians don't give a **** if you care about protecting their ancient monuments and history. Stop thinking Britain has to be the police of this world in almost every affair there is, just let the Egyptians sort out their own problems IF it were to come to that. Which is very very unlikely.

    You know who else had this sort of mentality? Tony Blair supporters. Look how that turned out.
    I don't think that. I've explicitly said I don't think that multiple times. Please actually read my posts before attempting to enter the conversation.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    I think you've misunderstood the OP, this hypothetical war isn't over egyptian lives, it's over some ancient monuments built on the blood, sweat and tears of forced labour. Such a testament to human cruelty is hardly worth preserving in my view except to maybe educate future generations over the cruelty of slavery. However, the monuments of Egypt aren't used in that way, therefore, whilst I would agree that it would be a loss to loose them, I don't consider them to be worth more than any human life really.

    Your mentality of spilling blood is abhorrent to me, I wouldn't want to lose blood of any person over the Pyramids of Egypt. You were also the first here to start with the ad-hominems so don't now try and act like the morally superior one. Maybe you would be fine with loosing family members for the sake of Egyptian cultural heritage, but I'm not. I have no spiritual or religious commonality with the people of Egypt and neither does the vast majority of the British population.
    I've specifically said I don't see any particular importance to the pyramids, but believe the libraries, the ancient cities, the places of worship, should all be protected. I share spiritual commonality with the people of Egypt in the sense that I am human. To me that's all the similarities I need. I also have no mentality of spilling blood, as I have tried to clarify on multiple occasions. Clearly you have not understood this.

    I appologise if you feel I attacked you personally, that was not my intention.
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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    I've specifically said I don't see any particular importance to the pyramids, but believe the libraries, the ancient cities, the places of worship, should all be protected. I share spiritual commonality with the people of Egypt in the sense that I am human. To me that's all the similarities I need. I also have no mentality of spilling blood, as I have tried to clarify on multiple occasions. Clearly you have not understood this.

    I appologise if you feel I attacked you personally, that was not my intention.
    So why are the pyramids not important to you but the ancient cities, libraries etc are very important to you? If you're going to go to a hypothetical war to protect egyptian heritage at least be consistent. Why protect one thing but not the other? Surely the egyptian baby has as much a right to look at the pyramids as she does an ancient city or library in your own stated worldview?

    If you really believed you shared the spiritual commonality with the people of Egypt by mere virtue of being human as you claimed you did then surely you must agree that avoiding the loss of human life over some historical sites is more important than people dying trying to preserve aforementioned historical sites? I don't really understand how you can say you relate to the people of Egypt as humans and then simultaneously support people dying over their own cultural heritage. Would you support people dying over say, York Cathedral or the Colosseum of Rome? If not then why not?

    Don't get me wrong, I believe that sites of historical value are valuable and should be preserved as much as humanely possible but entering a war over them is too far for me. In any case unless I've been reading dodgy news sources ISIS has already begun it's destruction of historical treasures in any case so the OP's scenario is not that far fetched
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    (Original post by rimstone)

    when only 1 of the 7 wonder of the world exists today, it should showcase how history has just been one nice rock taken down and replaced with another. No one know or cared about teh rocks that came before and no one ever will. And as you can see your not or i not complaining about the countless wonders that have been lost, if another one was gone, wouldnt mean **** all to me. Since history needs to be learnt, not preserved and not cared about by anyone.
    People do care about the history that came before. I think the sacking of the library of alexandria was a tragedy. I would have loved to have seen the coluseum in it's former glory.

    And yes, history is to be learnt, but I personally feel I have a greater understanding of the historical sites I've visited and their associated events, then I've ever garnered from a textbook.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    So why are the pyramids not important to you but the ancient cities, libraries etc are very important to you? If you're going to go to a hypothetical war to protect egyptian heritage at least be consistent. Why protect one thing but not the other? Surely the egyptian baby has as much a right to look at the pyramids as she does an ancient city or library in your own stated worldview?

    If you really believed you shared the spiritual commonality with the people of Egypt by mere virtue of being human as you claimed you did then surely you must agree that avoiding the loss of human life over some historical sites is more important than people dying trying to preserve aforementioned historical sites? I don't really understand how you can say you relate to the people of Egypt as humans and then simultaneously support people dying over their own cultural heritage. Would you support people dying over say, York Cathedral or the Colosseum of Rome? If not then why not?

    Don't get me wrong, I believe that sites of historical value are valuable and should be preserved as much as humanely possible but entering a war over them is too far for me. In any case unless I've been reading dodgy news sources ISIS has already begun it's destruction of historical treasures in any case so the OP's scenario is not that far fetched
    I said the pyramids aren't of any particular importance, not that they aren't important at all, i.e. They hold the same importance as the rest of the worlds cultural heritage. You seem to just be being purposefully obtuse at this point.

    I agree that to a certain extent the loss of human life should be avoided. The fact is though in any activity people die, and as long as the risk of placing people to guard these monuments is understood, minimised, and the people doing it are aware of it, I see no problem with it. Or do you think people shouldn't be allowed to drive, eat solid food, or walk under coconut trees, and it's an unnecessary risk to life? I would support guarding the other monuments mentioned in the same way if the need arose.

    I don't think anyone should enter a war over them, but if war were to make it to them then I think using a UN peacekeeping force to try and keep said war separate from them is a worthy goal. You're right, ISIS has already started the destruction of historical treasures, and as previously mentioned I think the burning of books from libraries in Iraq, and the destruction of Palmyra, among other things, is a tragedy.
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    Hypothetically... say Islamists took over or invaded Egypt. They are threatening to destroy every amazing Ancient Egyptian monument and artefact for being idolatrous, including the Great Pyramid itself.

    Would you be happy for Britain (and of course other Western countries) to invade Egypt to protect these monuments and artefacts?

    Sure, it's arguable that lives are more important than a few ancient stones, but I would be in favour of this. I couldn't sit back and watch these be destroyed.
    No.

    You can always volunteer your own services.
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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    I said the pyramids aren't of any particular importance, not that they aren't important at all, i.e. They hold the same importance as the rest of the worlds cultural heritage. You seem to just be being purposefully obtuse at this point.

    I agree that to a certain extent the loss of human life should be avoided. The fact is though in any activity people die, and as long as the risk of placing people to guard these monuments is understood, minimised, and the people doing it are aware of it, I see no problem with it. Or do you think people shouldn't be allowed to drive, eat solid food, or walk under coconut trees, and it's an unnecessary risk to life? I would support guarding the other monuments mentioned in the same way if the need arose.

    I don't think anyone should enter a war over them, but if war were to make it to them then I think using a UN peacekeeping force to try and keep said war separate from them is a worthy goal. You're right, ISIS has already started the destruction of historical treasures, and as previously mentioned I think the burning of books from libraries in Iraq, and the destruction of Palmyra, among other things, is a tragedy.
    Going into a deliberate combat to protect some monuments is significantly statistically far more dangerous than driving, eating food or walking under a coconut tree and you know this. It's a silly and inaccurate comparison and I'm not even sure why you're trying to compare the two. Especially dealing with the likes of ISIS who are significantly more aggressive.

    Okay, well I have no problem with people voluntarily putting themselves out there if they want to (although I think they are stupid personally) but what I don't want is another scenario where our men are wasted and killed for no real good reason. I don't want british men deployed out there fighting ISIS as part of normal military activities. The middle east is sick of western interference and they hate us enough already. I am personally of the opinion that the Egyptian army is more than competent enough to take on ISIS in any case

    Yes it's a tragedy, but loosing lives over it is an even bigger tragedy
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Going into a deliberate combat to protect some monuments is significantly statistically far more dangerous than driving, eating food or walking under a coconut tree and you know this. It's a silly and inaccurate comparison and I'm not even sure why you're trying to compare the two. Especially dealing with the likes of ISIS who are significantly more aggressive.

    Okay, well I have no problem with people voluntarily putting themselves out there if they want to (although I think they are stupid personally) but what I don't want is another scenario where our men are wasted and killed for no real good reason. I don't want british men deployed out there fighting ISIS as part of normal military activities. The middle east is sick of western interference and they hate us enough already. I am personally of the opinion that the Egyptian army is more than competent enough to take on ISIS in any case

    Yes it's a tragedy, but loosing lives over it is an even bigger tragedy
    You're right, it is more dangerous, but your statements don't make any case for risk vs reward, simply that life is more valuable than anything else. If one person could die so that no temple, no library, no historical artifacts, would ever be destroyed again, would you consider it worth it? We clearly just have different views on the value of human life vs the value of history and culture. That's fine. But you and others personally attacking me for it really isn't necessary.

    And British soldiers choose to be soldiers. There's no conscription. They won't be executed if they choose to leave the forces. I still don't get why you specify "British soldiers" either. Would you care less if it were French soldiers? If it were assorted UN peacekeeping members?

    Also interference in the way it has been done previously, and setting up perimeters around specific sites of interest, are very different things. Out of curiosity, do you think we were right to step in against the third reich, or should we have waited till they were landing on our beaches before we did anything?

    As repeatedly said, although the OP specifically mentions Egypt, I see it as worthwhile for the entirety of the region, and clearly their armies aren't strong enough to defend such sites.
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    (Original post by rimstone)
    My god, and we wonder why the people of the region hate us ...
    to save something thats pretty much has no value, at the cost of millions ... you must be real thick. we didnt care about monuments in iraq or libya, some of the greatest states of the past, better navy than the romans and better skirmishers than the romans
    do you even know the history of egypt ?
    the amount of its history already down the drain and forgotten ?
    as a lover of history i wouldnt even support it... if you want to honor something, learn the great history of egpyt instead of thinking a tiny part of their history in some unless blocks is worth destroying the country.
    honestly dont know if this is a troll or if your that ****ing stupid mate. you clearly know **** all about the history of egpyt and are trying to use some of the old monuments it has to suggest invading it would be worth it to save them ..

    if we do invaded for the sake of retard like you, i hope the egyptian army gives us a good hiding. .then again egypt has been historically known to have a crap army ..
    Funny you call me "stupid" yet clearly cannot read the word "hypothetical" in the OP. Also, resorting to swearing and insults to put your point across?
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    Hypothetically... say Islamists took over or invaded Egypt. They are threatening to destroy every amazing Ancient Egyptian monument and artefact for being idolatrous, including the Great Pyramid itself.

    Would you be happy for Britain (and of course other Western countries) to invade Egypt to protect these monuments and artefacts?

    Sure, it's arguable that lives are more important than a few ancient stones, but I would be in favour of this. I couldn't sit back and watch these be destroyed.
    No, since the protection of artefacts isn't our business.
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    (Original post by Dheorl)
    You're right, it is more dangerous, but your statements don't make any case for risk vs reward, simply that life is more valuable than anything else. If one person could die so that no temple, no library, no historical artifacts, would ever be destroyed again, would you consider it worth it? We clearly just have different views on the value of human life vs the value of history and culture. That's fine. But you and others personally attacking me for it really isn't necessary.

    And British soldiers choose to be soldiers. There's no conscription. They won't be executed if they choose to leave the forces. I still don't get why you specify "British soldiers" either. Would you care less if it were French soldiers? If it were assorted UN peacekeeping members?

    Also interference in the way it has been done previously, and setting up perimeters around specific sites of interest, are very different things. Out of curiosity, do you think we were right to step in against the third reich, or should we have waited till they were landing on our beaches before we did anything?

    As repeatedly said, although the OP specifically mentions Egypt, I see it as worthwhile for the entirety of the region, and clearly their armies aren't strong enough to defend such sites.
    No because imo human life comes over everything else. Also where have I personally insulted you? I said that I found your views abhorrent, not you personally; there's a big difference between attacking someone's opinion and attacking them personally

    Be that true as it may I just think that there are more worthwhile places for british soldiers to be than risking their lives for sites of historical interest. I specified british soldiers because the OP and title specifies 'Britain invading Egypt.' If the OP had specified Italian or French soldiers my response would be similar

    Comparing the Third Reich and losing sites of historical interest are two different things entirely. In the first instance it was obvious that the Nazi's posed a direct and imminent threat to the safety and wellbeing of Europe and indeed took millions of Jewish lives and prisoners in their twisted goals. ISIS destroying some ancient monuments does not equal the Holocaust.

    Neither are ours tbh, our military spending isn't the best as far as I could tell and ISIS are operating in a region that isn't our problem. I doubt that the Middle East and Africa could care less for our interference. ISIS is a muslim problem therefore muslims should solve it between themselves.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Ancient Egyptian artifacts aren't British cultural heritage therefore we have no real reason to justify getting into a war over it. Let the Africans preserve their own heritage if they care anything about it. It's none of our business
    I'm not advocating war here but surely that isn't the argument. The OP is starting from the assumption that the Pyramids are part of the wider human heritage. The real debate is about the potential human cost of war/invasion/intervention over the cultural and historic value.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I'm not advocating war here but surely that isn't the argument. The OP is starting from the assumption that the Pyramids are part of the wider human heritage. The real debate is about the potential human cost of war/invasion/intervention over the cultural and historic value.
    The Pyramids are not human cultural heritage, 99% of the world does not have ancestors linking them to the ancient egyptian people, they are purely African in origin. You haven't even considered the current attitude in the world towards western interference. They wouldn't want us there and we shouldn't be there for any reason. Period
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    The Pyramids are not human cultural heritage, 99% of the world does not have ancestors linking them to the ancient egyptian people, they are purely African in origin. You haven't even considered the current attitude in the world towards western interference. They wouldn't want us there and we shouldn't be there for any reason. Period
    They are African in origin... like homo sapiens... And they're a testament to what human beings can do, a symbol of the one of the greatest historic human civilisations.

    The issue of 'western interference' is a wholly separate one. I told you I'm not advocating war.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    They are African in origin... like homo sapiens... And they're a testament to what human beings can do, a symbol of the one of the greatest historic human civilisations.

    The issue of 'western interference' is a wholly separate one. I told you I'm not advocating war.
    Yes, a testament to the great cruelty of humanity as it was built on the backs and blood of slaves and forced labour :rolleyes: What a marvelous thing to preserve!

    You know what I mean, yes, every human has origins in Africa but not every human in the world would be able to trace their origins back to the people of Ancient Egypt. Not every person in the world is a direct ancestor of the people of Ancient Egypt
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    Hypothetically... say Islamists took over or invaded Egypt. They are threatening to destroy every amazing Ancient Egyptian monument and artefact for being idolatrous, including the Great Pyramid itself.

    Would you be happy for Britain (and of course other Western countries) to invade Egypt to protect these monuments and artefacts?

    Sure, it's arguable that lives are more important than a few ancient stones, but I would be in favour of this. I couldn't sit back and watch these be destroyed.
    No I bloody well don't agree. My son was in at the beginning of the Iraq war and did 2 tours of Afghanistan. Let them clear up their own mess, or better still, why don't you sign up and go?
 
 
 
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