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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    But Nazism is a political ideology, one which had no existence prior to around 1920. It is not some inherent part of German identity or political culture; indeed, the only prominent work arguing that Nazi-esque traits were indeed deep-rooted in German culture - Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners - was almost unanimously subject to scathing dismissals by historians of the Holocaust. In fact, a lot of influential work on the Holocaust in recent decades has emphasised the importance of shockingly mundane issues in motivating perpetrators.
    Indeed and Islamism is even younger.

    I don't subscribe to inherent cultural factors or the civilisation thesis, but I do believe in the war of ideas. German anti Semitism certainly has a rich history, as does political Islam.

    The idea that the overwhelming majority of Islamist fighters are motivated solely or primarily by religious doctrine would appear to be contradicted by the recent leaked ISIS documents. 70% of recruits described their knowledge of Sharia as 'basic', the lowest possible answer. And we're not talking a small sample size here, but over 3,000 people - about 10% of ISIS' estimated fighting strength at the time.
    That's presuming that someone is an Islamist by their religious knowledge. I don't doubt that their knowledge of Islam is poor, but they still identify with them in the same way that most white supremacists may not have read Mein Kampf or other tracts but still have a 'grasp' of the essential message.

    This is an ideology- we are seeing very well educated people in the west join Islamic state and other groups- sure there may be pragmatists in the caliphate who identify with them out of survival but it cannot be denied that ideology and religious belief play an essential part within the leadership and recruitment.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Indeed and Islamism is even younger.

    I don't subscribe to inherent cultural factors or the civilisation thesis, but I do believe in the war of ideas. German anti Semitism certainly has a rich history, as does political Islam.
    But neither provide much of an explanation, beyond a basic level of background context, for Nazism and Islamist terrorism respectively, both of which are, in their own way, very modern phenomena (despite the fact that both view themselves as trying to restore a glorious past).

    That's presuming that someone is an Islamist by their religious knowledge.
    No, just that those with less religious knowledge are likely less religiously devout.

    I don't doubt that their knowledge of Islam is poor, but they still identify with them in the same way that most white supremacists may not have read Mein Kampf or other tracts but still have a 'grasp' of the essential message.
    i) This is comparing two texts of very differing canonical significance. The Quran defines Islam in a way Mein Kampf doesn't remotely define white supremacism, Neo-Nazism, or even actual Nazism (as Hitler was, of course, still alive, and his statements and orders in power would trump what he said in 1925). There's no such thing as 'non-Quranic Islam'.

    ii) Identity is quite a different thing from doctrine. And indeed, I would certainly agree that those who join ISIS identify as Muslims in a fundamental way (and by this I don't mean that they're 'not real Muslims', but merely that they regard their 'Muslim-ness' as a fundamental part of who they are, regardless of actual religious observance). But that doesn't make them a result of doctrine or religious devotion. To use a comparison I've made before, take the Yugoslav wars. The Serb side heavily emphasised their Orthodox heritage, taking care to have their troops blessed before battle, have Orthodox priests at official meetings, emphasise the importance of monasteries and churches, etc. They also had foreign fighters join them from other Orthodox countries like Russia, Greece and Romania. Yet no serious scholar of the Bosnian conflict considers it a war fundamentally motivated by inherent religious differences, or even inherent ethnic differences.

    This is an ideology- we are seeing very well educated people in the west join Islamic state and other groups- sure there may be pragmatists in the caliphate who identify with them out of survival but it cannot be denied that ideology and religious belief play an essential part within the leadership and recruitment.
    Many of the leadership, probably yes. Many of the soldiers I expect have other motivations. The identification of the cause with an Islamic one gives them a sense of psychological security and legitimisation - it lets them believe that they're not doing this for the selfish or mundane reasons that are their real motivation, just as it provided the various mercenary and criminal paramilitaries in the Bosnian War with a cover for their more self-interested motives.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Essentially that because of colonialism-and disastrous foreign policy the west has no right criticise others
    Yet must accept similar lecturing from those with equally abysmal histories, apparently..........

    Anyway, that Milo guy is an absolute tool. Douglas Murray is a G though. As is Fraser Nelson
 
 
 
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