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The alt-right are more "regressive" than the "regressive" left watch

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    (Original post by stillridin)
    With all due respect, this article outlines what an alt-right "member" is.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/25/po...-donald-trump/

    Again it's from CNN which does have a slightly left leaning bias.
    But hopefully it explains stuff
    To be fair, CNN have been found to literally take orders from the DNC (as per the email leak) and be engaging in smear campaigns against people who are anti-Hillary. Again, that's no conspiracy theory, it's all in the leak. Speaking of conspiracy theories, CNN label criticism of Hillary as conspiracy theories regardless of their truthfulness. Not that I don't think your point has an air of truth to it (some of these "alt-right" groups are completely insane) but I'd strongly advise against using CNN as a source for anything regarding this as it's tied to their wider campaign of shilling for Clinton by labelling her detractors as crazy.
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    The AltRight aren't that bad. All I have a problem with them is that they're so morally left-wing (ie most of them seem to be in support of transgender folk and lgb people). The only bad ones are the really edgy ones. I'd say I'm AltRight but really only because I'm a post-libertarian :/
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    Lol the alt right are actually so retarded it's hilarious
    They think they're all big boys but are really just a bunch of autistic kids sitting in their rooms making bad memes about SJWs
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    Both are retarded. The actual alt right that is, not people who merely criticise Islam and like Milo.

    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    "Regressive" and "left" is an oxymoron. Being on the left is by default being progressive and someone who seeks equality.
    Wanting more government control and less commercial freedom is progressive?
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    I generally agree with OP with the exception of the point about Islam, as the growing influence of such an ultra-conservative and intolerant religion in Europe is worrying.

    Tbh I think most of the extreme anti-establishment types from both the alt-right and the regressive left are fools, or at the very least are being led into endorsing such views by prominent media figures. You see it with the types Donald Trump is stirring up when he makes a controversial comment, or the Corbynistas over here who are convinced that Jeremy is the saviour against the evil Tories. Ironically the regressive left tend to also be authoritarian in enforcing their views, 'tolerance of the extremely intolerant' and diversity for diversity's sake etc. I wish people would just look at any given issue logically and come up with a pragmatic solution, rather than being riled up by ideological salesmen.
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    The Alternative Right has been formed as a result of the left's incessant need to ignore the concerns of the working class demographic, hence allowing vocal minorities among the disenfranchised to attach themselves to radical movements promulgating against their own socioeconomic interests. I'm not a fan of Donald Trump, nor am I a fan of Milo, but both have managed to manipulate the working class vote by preying on their insecurities. If we, as so-called progressives, are unwilling to comprehend the others' concerns then we are adding to the discontent which has led the western down a path of political extremism. In saying that, however, the regressive left has become one of the heinous political movements of modern times, notably because of their unfounded appeasement of political correctness and their willingness to stray from classical liberalism to pander to ethnic minorities and their own skewed agenda.

    I wouldn't consider myself left wing, but I do bot agree with the alt-right. I'd recommend people listen to Ben Shapiro (Conservative), Dave Rubin (Liberal) and Sam Harris (Moderate) if you want to have a fresh perspective on world events and geopolitics.
    It isn't really a new thing - the big fascist movements of the 30s also preyed on working class mass discontent with the main democratic parties. There's a lot of amnesia involved in the analysis at present - much of what we see with people like Trump and Farage is repackaged fascism 'modernised' to make it acceptable to contemporary audiences and a political space where the media and key parts of the public are strongly resistant to blatant fascism.

    It's obviously true that many working class people are angry about their economic plight - given that their incomes have broadly stagnated or fallen for about 10 years, whilst those of the rich have ballooned, this is hardly surprising. It's also true that the main social democratic parties went through a prolonged flirtation with neoliberalism which involved dumping working class concerns and when the financial crash came, they looked hopeless.

    What's now needed is a major revision on the part of progressives - new efforts to reach working class people with intelligent policies. Constantly blaming immigrants for our economic crisis plays well for the Right. The Left and Centre need to set out a new stall. The problem is what to put on it. I think it would be a mix of what Corbyn offers, what the Greens say and a modernising agenda of massive investment in a new paradigm of public services and economic growth not based on exploiting low paid people.
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    Agree with all except the one about Islam.

    But, then again I think pretty much any religion is s****y, and just causes problems for our society.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It isn't really a new thing - the big fascist movements of the 30s also preyed on working class mass discontent with the main democratic parties. There's a lot of amnesia involved in the analysis at present - much of what we see with people like Trump and Farage is repackaged fascism 'modernised' to make it acceptable to contemporary audiences and a political space where the media and key parts of the public are strongly resistant to blatant fascism.

    It's obviously true that many working class people are angry about their economic plight - given that their incomes have broadly stagnated or fallen for about 10 years, whilst those of the rich have ballooned, this is hardly surprising. It's also true that the main social democratic parties went through a prolonged flirtation with neoliberalism which involved dumping working class concerns and when the financial crash came, they looked hopeless.

    What's now needed is a major revision on the part of progressives - new efforts to reach working class people with intelligent policies. Constantly blaming immigrants for our economic crisis plays well for the Right. The Left and Centre need to set out a new stall. The problem is what to put on it. I think it would be a mix of what Corbyn offers, what the Greens say and a modernising agenda of massive investment in a new paradigm of public services and economic growth not based on exploiting low paid people.
    This. We need a new progressive framework - a mixture of Corbyn's policies and Green policies would be almost utopian for me.

    We need to forge a society with welcoming immigration policies and a robust, well-invested welfare state.
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    "Regressive" and "left" is an oxymoron. Being on the left is by default being progressive and someone who seeks equality.
    That's exactly why the term is being used. It points out the irony of a movement using authoritarian means to promote its liberal ideals.
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    (Original post by stillridin)
    Tbh

    Imagine idolising a self-hating gay man
    what?
    I mean, I'm bisexual, and *I* don't hate myself as a member of the alt-right
    who are you even talking about?

    Imagine actuslly taking a an associate of ALEX JONES seriously
    if alex jones ever said something that was true, would that make the truth a lie...?

    Imagine thinking that Islam is a real problem
    it is doe, unless terrorism and fundamentalist misogyny/homophobia isn't a problem to you

    Imagine blindly hating multiple civil rights movements just because some dude on YouTube tells you to
    you mean black lives matter? black lives matter is an anti-white group though isn't it. I mean, if we're talking about black incarceration, the culture of the black population is simply quite distinct from the white population's culture and this is what causes more crime from them, not police racism - blacks in the USA at least drop out *waaaay* more than whites from high school, and blacks kill more blacks than anybody else. I mean, if we're talking about statistics, it's quite rich to say "black people are unfairly targeted for crimes" when they, in terms of hard criminal-court evidence, commit 50%> of all murders in the USA yet make up less than 20% of the population. I mean, I don't even know what to tell you - black lives matter is basically just blaming white people for black people's shortcomings. and if you mean feminism, then lmao.
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    I mean, I don't even know what to tell you - black lives matter is basically just blaming white people for black people's shortcomings.
    I thought it would take longer for someone to demonstrate that I'm right about 'alt-right = white supremacist' but...
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    (Original post by JohnGreek)
    That's exactly why the term is being used. It points out the irony of a movement using authoritarian means to promote its liberal ideals.
    "Authoritarian means" is just exaggeration. It is basically just standing up to bigotry and discrimination through peaceful protest, and by also not agreeing that we should just be able to say whatever we want no matter the consequences.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It isn't really a new thing - the big fascist movements of the 30s also preyed on working class mass discontent with the main democratic parties. There's a lot of amnesia involved in the analysis at present - much of what we see with people like Trump and Farage is repackaged fascism 'modernised' to make it acceptable to contemporary audiences and a political space where the media and key parts of the public are strongly resistant to blatant fascism.

    It's obviously true that many working class people are angry about their economic plight - given that their incomes have broadly stagnated or fallen for about 10 years, whilst those of the rich have ballooned, this is hardly surprising. It's also true that the main social democratic parties went through a prolonged flirtation with neoliberalism which involved dumping working class concerns and when the financial crash came, they looked hopeless.

    What's now needed is a major revision on the part of progressives - new efforts to reach working class people with intelligent policies. Constantly blaming immigrants for our economic crisis plays well for the Right. The Left and Centre need to set out a new stall. The problem is what to put on it. I think it would be a mix of what Corbyn offers, what the Greens say and a modernising agenda of massive investment in a new paradigm of public services and economic growth not based on exploiting low paid people.
    (Sorry for my late reply but the notifications notifier is not working)

    The Green Party have not once put forward a cogent platform from which their policies can be implemented and their ludicrous proposals have shown to lack any credibility when they are put under extensive scrutiny from political journalists and economic analysts, hence why they are polling at 4% and they only have one Member of Parliament.

    I don't blame you for inheriting an idealistic position, but your unwillingness to accept the consequences of immigration is enough to dismiss any credibility you wish to achieve in our discussion. There is no denying that uncontrolled and mass immigration puts immense pressures on housing, public services and the working wage; not to mention the implications immigration from afar has on community cohesion and social integration. The lack of a backbone from the left with regard to their reluctance to denounce minority communities is core to the left's disillusion with many of the country's populous, especially when it comes to Islam and Muslim communities. I'm not saying the left should unequivocally denounce Islam, but there are too many Muslim communities which have been allowed to isolate themselves from society as a result of faith schools and social disharmony. Faith schools mean that young Muslims do not integrate with fellow members of society, which allows young people to be indoctrinated with a belief which is not open to interrogation and open discussion as it should be in a secular and open society. The left won't denounce the aforementioned because of their reliance on the Muslim demographic in the election, hence why we have unfounded appeasement towards Islam despite the glaring incompatibilities which are proving evermore pertinent.

    You mentioned of a new paradigm for economic investment, but herein lies another problem with the leftist argument. Socialism does not work. Socialism has never worked. Socialism leads to economic stagnation and huge governmental inefficiencies, evidence from which is easily manifested through study of previous socialist regimes throughout history. The USSR for instance suffered huge economic stagnation in the latter years of its existence, while the USA was booming as a result of Reagan's pursuit of free market economics. Now, I know what you're thinking, the USSR wasn't "proper socialism", was it? Well what about Venezuela? Another country which underwent socialist revolution with the aim of providing niceties to all its citizens with free healthcare and education. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. Many Venezuelans live in dire poverty compared to their neighbours and recent news outlets have shown Venezuelan citizens crossing the border into Colombia for food and shelter. "No", you may reply, "Venezuela is not true socialism, either", you may add, "You need to use comparable examples from fellow rich countries to make any sort of point". Well, what about France? They have a population similar to ours, but instead of having a pro-business centre-right government at the helm, they have a far-left Socialist Party (self-proclaimed) who believe in high taxes and big government. However, France hasn't turned into the utopia you may have expected. Although they introduced a top rate of income tax at 75%, it was later abandoned as it was disincentivising foreign investment and causing the rich to flee to other countries like Britain. By the way, since Hollande took over, they have had the slowest growing economy in the G7 and their economic growth is behind both Britain and Germany. The Socialists, by the way, are now polling at record lows.

    So, what do we need? I say Libertarianism: fiscal conservatism alongside classical liberalism. An acceptance of free market economics, but also a willingness to progress society though intellectual discussions regarding social policy and immigration. If we want to get the working class on side, we should stop dismissing their concerns as bigoted and racist - even if they might be. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression is the only way we can expose the less tasteful elements of society, which therefore allows us to challenge unfounded views and tackle people's prejudices.

    Fullofsurprises
    Iridocyclitis
    Iridocyclytis
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    The 'alt right' are just fascists in denial.
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    I agree.

    What is interesting though, and different from the 30s, is that, in mainland Europe, the far-right is doing quite well among women; possibly because many of the prominent far-right leaders are female, but also perhaps the increasing focus on migrant rapes and sexual assaults.



    While the far-right is far-right towards outsiders, it is often left-wing towards nationals; and therefore, many of the fascist-esque parties offer these sorts of policies already, although with a nationalist theme, e.g. generous benefits aimed only at nationals by birth. So how effective would your plan be, if there is already a party championing these sorts of economic policies?

    Fullofsurprises (notifications aren't working; apparently its not just me)
    I'm not seeing the @-person things either, evidently nothing much is working, sigh.

    It's always easy for any politician to point a finger at someone 'other' during a crisis and say they are to blame for it all. Conveniently, this 'other' person is not normally a member of the actual elites who caused the crisis. :rolleyes: Behaviour like this goes back to medieval times and beyond. It's called scapegoating and it has a long and ignoble history.

    I basically think the Left has to be smarter than the reactionary manipulators who are using these policies. One important thing is to keep telling the truth all the time loudly - that these finger-pointing, minority-blaming activities are designed to keep the rich rich. The real backers of people like Farage are not Joe and Joanne Blogger in Essex, but offshored tax-dodging billionaires. People should ask themselves why people like that are so keen to back them. Also, why has Farage abruptly disappeared from the scene? The answer is that he's completed the contract that the oligarchs were paying him for.
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    I thought it would take longer for someone to demonstrate that I'm right about 'alt-right = white supremacist' but...
    None of what they have said is any thing to do with white supremacy it is to do with not being in favour of chanting, supporting the death of police, killing cops, burning down bp and the rest of the community and attacking people based on skin colour though but if you ignore those things about BLM sure they are not that bad.
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    (Original post by cbreef)
    I can't think of one person who matches your description who isn't muslim
    Ever read The Guardian?
 
 
 
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