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    I don't care what the Junior Doctors want, they should get it, within reason.

    Some people in government are hell bent on destroying the NHS, even if it costs them their own reputation. By cutting funding to the NHS under the guise of "living within our (whose?) means", they can continue to criticise the NHS and open it up to private companies and contractors under the guise of offering "better service".
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    Like Theresa May "the BMA should be putting their patients before their politics agendas" (bit of a paraphrase)
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    (Original post by Etomidate)
    Applications for medical school have fallen a record amount, and for the first time in history, there are medicine places going into clearing. More unfilled positions are emerging in year groups that were previously oversubscribed.

    I don't think anyone went into medicine with the expectation of having terms of employment imposed on them against their will at the discretion of the government. Especially despite ignored cries from every corner that this is an impending disaster waiting to happen. Doctors are trying to warn the public that the government is about to do something incredibly dangerous, driven by an individual who has heavily vested interests in the private healthcare industry.
    No it's greed. they get paid more, and I think that's how it is.
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    (Original post by _Morsey_)
    I may be wrong here, but weren't the BMA happy at one point regarding the new contract, only to have another ballot where junior doctors disagreed?
    Wasn't it the other way round?
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    (Original post by motoroller)
    Obvious troll is obvious, back these kind of things up with facts. There are currently 2 applicants per specialty training place across the country, including GP.

    http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advic...to_the_process

    Do you really expect people to commit a decade of their lives to studying if there were a 33% chance of them getting a career at the end of it?!
    You woud think not, but the number of people they manage to convince to do the LPC and BPTC with the goal of going into criminal law and getting less money than junior doctors suggests people are suckers.

    Going out with a junior doc, I think the fundamental issue seems to be this will likely be used to further stretch already over stretched rotas. What my other half, and seemingly most others, didn't realise is their current contract allows trusts to do this too, albeit it will cost slightly more (assuming trusts don't just refuse to pay the punishment sums, which are rarely large enough to justify the costs of the court action required to get them).

    I think the BMA's taken a big risk with the emergency care 5 day strikes, and if the first goes ahead in full I suspect will May use her majority to push through emergency legislation banning doctors from striking, just like they did with Police.

    Ultimately the issues of under-recruitment are still going to come and bite the government at some point, but she'll be betting that's far enough down the line it won't be her problem. I think that's a big gamble, but I expect she'll make that call.
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    (Original post by _Morsey_)
    I may be wrong here, but weren't the BMA happy at one point regarding the new contract, only to have another ballot where junior doctors disagreed?
    One member of the council said that it was a better deal. A re-vote was subsequently put to the members of the union (i.e. a democratic decision) and the majority voted to reject the contract again.

    (Original post by kimkarsd)
    No it's greed. they get paid more, and I think that's how it is.
    The maths doesn't lie. It would have equated to a pay cut, especially for the most anti-social areas of medicine.
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    (Original post by Jannah Banana)
    It's simple, stop rigging the medical student market and create a surplus of junior doctors, we'll see how greedy these kids are when there are 3 of them competing for one space.
    Yeh, train loads of Doctors at 200,000 a time to create a surplus. That makes sense.
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    More people commit a similar amount of time and money to reading law with a much lower chance of a career at the end.
    How did you reach that conclusion?
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    (Original post by Etomidate)
    One member of the council said that it was a better deal. A re-vote was subsequently put to the members of the union (i.e. a democratic decision) and the majority voted to reject the contract again.


    The maths doesn't lie. It would have equated to a pay cut, especially for the most anti-social areas of medicine.
    Sorry, they chose to join up, they are there to face the risks, which aren't even that high compared to other professions.
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    (Original post by kimkarsd)
    Sorry, they chose to join up, they are there to face the risks, which aren't even that high compared to other professions.
    Yeh, I mean, the risk of going to prison and being permanently banned from your profession for making a mistake is something that people regularly go through.
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    Greedy junior doctors, no support from me.

    The new contracts should now include a no-strike clause.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yeh, I mean, the risk of going to prison and being permanently banned from your profession for making a mistake is something that people regularly go through.
    Not really, since they get higher pay than most others, and the profession is inherently demanding. They're being whiny, and frankly police officers should get paid as much. They're just as important to how society operates, maybe more so.
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    (Original post by kimkarsd)
    Not really, since they get higher pay than most others, and the profession is inherently demanding. They're being whiny, and frankly police officers should get paid as much. They're just as important to how society operates, maybe more so.
    That has nothing to do with what I said.

    You said there were no risks/ as many risks as other professions.

    I said there was a risk of prison.

    Even ignoring that. Medicine is a 5 year degree. Obviously, they are going to get paid more. No idiot is going to do a 5 year degree to get paid less than most people.

    [email protected] Police officer should get paid as much. What an absurd thing to say.
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    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    Greedy junior doctors, no support from me.

    The new contracts should now include a no-strike clause.
    Bohoo.

    Yeh, that is going to stop people from striking.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    That has nothing to do with what I said.

    You said there were no risks/ as many risks as other professions.

    I said there was a risk of prison.

    Even ignoring that. Medicine is a 5 year degree. Obviously, they are going to get paid more. No idiot is going to do a 5 year degree to get paid less than most people.

    [email protected] Police officer should get paid as much. What an absurd thing to say.
    Hmm....so they protect society from criminals....yep undeserving.
    Actually, no, there are people who do long degrees too, in other courses. Medicine isn't the only five year course. You're projecting your own reasons why you became a doctor or something.... doctors get paid more due to their role in society, like you should know, treating the injured and curing the sick, and **** like that.....

    Oh, and learn some economics, and why different professions get paid what they do, not your own retard explanations from your brain.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Bohoo.

    Yeh, that is going to stop people from striking.
    It does, the police and army have not striked in a long time have they? There is a good reason for that. The same applies in lots of countries.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yeh, I mean, the risk of going to prison and being permanently banned from your profession for making a mistake is something that people regularly go through.
    'I will reply to any response you give to this post within X hours'*. I breach such a promise, I get struck off. I **** up my client accounts, I go to prison.

    Medicine isn't the only profession where people face these risks, it's why we get paid more than most. The example of law here or any profession in America (including medicine) shows there are enough people willing to take a gamble and pay huge sums for a professional qualification that may well never lead to a job . That does not mean such an approach is moral, but it does show it can happen.

    *For the avoidance of all doubt, that is an example of what can constitute an undertaking and is not to be taken as a binding undertaking.
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    (Original post by kimkarsd)
    Hmm....so they protect society from criminals....yep undeserving.
    No. You said they should be paid as much.

    Everyone wants to protect society from Criminals. The same way everyone wants to save lives. Doctors and nurses don't own the saving lives part.



    (Original post by kimkarsd)
    Actually, no, there are people who do long degrees too, in other courses. Medicine isn't the only five year course. You're projecting your own reasons why you became a doctor or something.... doctors get paid more due to their role in society, like you should know, treating the injured and curing the sick, and **** like that.....
    And like I said before.....how many people do 5 year degrees to get paid less than most people? That includes the few other comparable courses.

    You can't even answer the basic point without rambling on.
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    (Original post by Iron Bowl)
    'I will reply to any response you give to this post within X hours'*. I breach such a promise, I get struck off. I **** up my client accounts, I go to prison.

    Medicine isn't the only profession where people face these risks, it's why we get paid more than most. The example of law here or any profession in America (including medicine) shows there are enough people willing to take a gamble and pay huge sums for a professional qualification that may well never lead to a job . That does not mean such an approach is moral, but it does show it can happen.

    *For the avoidance of all doubt, that is an example of what can constitute an undertaking and is not to be taken as a binding undertaking.
    I didn't say it was the only profession.
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    I can no longer support the junior doctors. The contract must be imposed as soon as possible. They are losing public support and this is now clearly about money
 
 
 
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