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Labour Leadership Contest 2016 watch

  • View Poll Results: Who would you vote for - Jeremy Corbyn or Owen Smith?
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    (Original post by Francis Urquhart)
    I'm afraid although Corbyn is willing to accept his mistakes many of his supporters see it as nothing less than a personal triumph. And although admitting mistakes is novel, i'd rather a politician focus on policies. Which admittedly Corbyn does but he is walking a very thin line.

    500,000 is a very big number in the labour member echochamber.

    But it's pretty small compared to the 9.3 million labour supporters that voted in the last election.

    Not-to-mention the required amount to actually have a chance at majority government. Looking at the leadership contest is fine, however they also need to take a look at what the general voters want.

    It could be argued that the leadership debacle with another challenger is taking attention away from the general public, however i'd say that there needs to be more reflection upon realistic policy. We've already seen a few questionable policy decisions such as the Trident without nukes moment as well as a perpetually uncertain stance on Europe with a very-much tone-deaf attempt to stay in the EU.

    They need to pay attention to the voter. This isn't about political prostitution, it's about the delegate model; an elitist model which this nation uses. And until people are ready to overhaul such a system then we are left with then if labour are to realistically win then they need to start by finding out what the voters want and to see if it is realistic to action it.

    A few things which are PROBABLY (I emphasise that as it's my own opinion so general speculation) unpopular in the public sphere.
    1. Nationalisation of previously privatised services.
    2. Nuclear Dis-armament
    3. His decision not to support article 5 of NATO.

    Those are the big ones in my mind that they need to shift policy on, and although i for one support re-nationalisation in the future, right now it's simply unrealistic, we should be saving the pennies for the inevitable train-wreck which is BREXIT.

    Best regards
    Francis.
    Hi Francis Thanks for your measured response.
    The media are desperate to tell us that he is hard left and out of touch, but the reality is different. Owen Smith the supposed moderate candidate is copying most of his policies including nationalisation, raising public spending and higher taxes for those earning over £150K.

    This article tells how more than 60% of the population are for renationalisation.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/06...eft-and-right/
    Corbyn's policy is actually less radical than Owen's on this, as Corbyn wants to regulate fares until the franchises expire, whilst Owen wants to buy the franchises back.

    This article shows that the nuclear issue whilst still favoured by a majority is not a high priority with most voters.
    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...-trident/21868

    It also seems that the majority of people favour a rise to a 60% rate of tax for over £150K, more than either are proposing.

    In addition it appears that a large number of those that oppose these measures are firm Tories anyway, and would never vote Labour.

    As for the NATO stance it is not very clear cut what Corbyn's policy is other than that he would seek to use diplomacy as a first resort and military action as a last. At the moment it is NATO allies that are doing the invading rather than the other way round.
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    The great irony Corbyn supporters fail to see is that they are making this country more right wing than could be imaginable before.


    With no coherent opposition, the Tories pass whatever right wing legislation takes their fancy, lurching the UK dramatically to the right.



    But, of course, Corbynites arn't interested in actually saving the UK from the Tories, they just want to be right and have their little protest in the corner. This is the reality. They're more interested in screaming about 'fairness' and 'membership support' rather than actual change.

    The hungry man on the street can't eat membership support.


    SS
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    I hate both, but probably Owen Smith
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    The great irony Corbyn supporters fail to see is that they are making this country more right wing than could be imaginable before.
    With no coherent opposition, the Tories pass whatever right wing legislation takes their fancy, lurching the UK dramatically to the right.
    But, of course, Corbynites arn't interested in actually saving the UK from the Tories, they just want to be right and have their little protest in the corner. This is the reality. They're more interested in screaming about 'fairness' and 'membership support' rather than actual change.
    The hungry man on the street can't eat membership support.SS
    I agree that the situation with the Labour Party means the Tories are getting away with stuff. Though they were forced to make some reversals before the PLP coup. What I feel is unreasonable is that Corbyn and his supporters are being blamed for the whole mess, when they were not the ones who instigated it. Corbyn and his supporters are very interested in saving the UK from the Tories, and are being prevented from doing so by this unnecessary election. Corbyn is offering an alternative to Tory policies, not trying to mimic them in a vain attempt to fool Tory voters. Prior to the general election he wants to fight the Tories not vote with them on austerity like the Labour Party had been doing.
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    Nice to see Corbyn get called out by an audience member last night on his support for Hamas.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Nice to see Corbyn get called out by an audience member last night on his support for Hamas.
    And his answer was that he didn't, but what he did want was a peaceful resolution to the problems between Palestine and Israel.
    I also noticed that Owen Smith seems to think opposing anything Israel does is anti-semitic, and that hard left left organisations like the SWP and AWP are automatically anti-semitic.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    And his answer was that he didn't, but what he did want was a peaceful resolution to the problems between Palestine and Israel.
    I also noticed that Owen Smith seems to think opposing anything Israel does is anti-semitic, and that hard left left organisations like the SWP and AWP are automatically anti-semitic.
    I'm not talking about him calling Hamas friends(questionable though that is) but rather him praising them for their contribution to peace and social justice, if he doesn't support them he's a fool given what's in their charter. Either way it makes him unfit to lead the country.

    Re the hard left, the current abusive environment within the Labour Party wasn't there before he was elected leader and Labour's ranks were swelled by them.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I'm not talking about him calling Hamas friends(questionable though that is) but rather him praising them for their contribution to peace and social justice, if he doesn't support them he's a fool given what's in their charter. Either way it makes him unfit to lead the country.

    Re the hard left, the current abusive environment within the Labour Party wasn't there before he was elected leader and Labour's ranks were swelled by them.
    Shamelessly brown nosing Raed Saleh was nauseating enough. If you don't know about this piece of work, Google him. Corbyn is his mate. So is Ibrahim Hewitt. Corbyn's words, not mine before any of you cultists say it......
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Shamelessly brown nosing Raed Saleh was nauseating enough. If you don't know about this piece of work, Google him. Corbyn is his mate. So is Ibrahim Hewitt. Corbyn's words, not mine before any of you cultists say it......
    Just looked it up.

    **** me it's hard to keep track of all his dodgy acquaintances.

    A "good friend" and "someone who represents people well" to quote St Jeremy.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Just looked it up.

    **** me it's hard to keep track of all his dodgy acquaintances.

    A "good friend" and "someone who represents people well" to quote St Jeremy.
    ‘I look forward to giving you tea on the terrace because you deserve it!’ He said to the man guilty of Hamas fundraising, blood libel against Jews (and of having a library of quotes pointing to antisemitism that would make Hitler wince).

    There are also other Hamas representatives he lied about not being associated with but was proven to do so.

    Either he's on that Hamas time or he's as naive as a child, which would also make sense having never had a job in his life. Either way he's unfit to lead Labour, let alone the country

    One should also be concerned with his bully boys Momentum and their (100% proven) working relationship with an extremist Islamist lobby group so antisemitic they were no-platformed by the NUS. The NUS! They literally campaigned against MPs for being Jews (in one case mistakingly). Momentum were caught out in an undercover investigation for working with this lot. Dat progressive. Such social justice. Very new, gentle politics.*
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    ‘I look forward to giving you tea on the terrace because you deserve it!’ He said to the man guilty of Hamas fundraising, blood libel against Jews (and of having a library of quotes pointing to antisemitism that would make Hitler wince).

    There are also other Hamas representatives he lied about not being associated with but was proven to do so.

    Either he's on that Hamas time or he's as naive as a child, which would also make sense having never had a job in his life. Either way he's unfit to lead Labour, let alone the country

    One should also be concerned with his bully boys Momentum and their (100% proven) working relationship with an extremist Islamist lobby group so antisemitic they were no-platformed by the NUS. The NUS! They literally campaigned against MPs for being Jews (in one case mistakingly). Momentum were caught out in an undercover investigation for working with this lot. Dat progressive. Such social justice. Very new, gentle politics.*
    Don't get me started on Momentum.

    What those fruitcakes don't realise(or wilfully ignore) is that Labour have always been a left coalition of Socialists and Social Democrats, but(and it's a massive but) they've only had success electorally and been able to make real changes via a Social Democratic platform.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I'm not talking about him calling Hamas friends(questionable though that is) but rather him praising them for their contribution to peace and social justice, if he doesn't support them he's a fool given what's in their charter. Either way it makes him unfit to lead the country.
    Seen through the eyes of Britain and Israel good, anyone who opposes anything they do bad, this may seem like a deal breaker.

    Re the hard left, the current abusive environment within the Labour Party wasn't there before he was elected leader and Labour's ranks were swelled by them.
    My own experience is that most of the comments and arguments voice by Corbyn supporters and many of his opponents is respectful and on issues. Corbyn himself condemns personal attacks, and unlike Owen Smith and Corbyn critics in the media, does not indulge in them himself. The media focus on a small minority of idiot supporters on the Corbyn side only, and wilfully ignore things like the Saving Labour's Facebook page which is solely devoted to ****ging off Corbyn, without offering any alternative policies or candidates.
    I also feel that the wide use of Twitter with its soundbite format, has fueled a culture of lazy insults, not just in the sphere of the Labour election, but throughout public debate.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Seen through the eyes of Britain and Israel good, anyone who opposes anything they do bad, this may seem like a deal breaker.
    I'm not pro-Israeli, I'm a fence sitter on the wider issue. However Hamas are anti-Semitic and ideologically committed to their destruction so I respect Israel's right to defend themselves from them. How a politician supposedly campaigning for peace(who you'd therefore assume would be reasonably well informed) can think Hamas are interested in it is ridiculous.

    My own experience is that most of the comments and arguments voice by Corbyn supporters and many of his opponents is respectful and on issues. Corbyn himself condemns personal attacks, and unlike Owen Smith and Corbyn critics in the media, does not indulge in them himself. The media focus on a small minority of idiot supporters on the Corbyn side only, and wilfully ignore things like the Saving Labour's Facebook page which is solely devoted to ****ging off Corbyn, without offering any alternative policies or candidates.
    I also feel that the wide use of Twitter with its soundbite format, has fueled a culture of lazy insults, not just in the sphere of the Labour election, but throughout public debate.
    Owen has the right to call him out on his actions, criticism of his leadership isn't a personal attack.

    Tbh I rarely go on social media these days, most of it's just drivel anyway(Twitter especially).
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    Smith , but I've reached the point where I don't care anymore. I think the Labour Party died a long time ago and that's probably for the best. Corbyn is useless, disingenuous and highly warped wheras Smith is merely dull and slightly pathetic.

    Mean while the liberal democrats remain hopeless and tainted beyond measure, probably unfairly but that's politics.

    This May government is perhaps the most passionless, cynical government in history with a collection of very dodgy, individuals who see brexit as a wonderful opportunity to sell missiles to despots.

    I think the real opposition will be from those conservatives with some form of conscience. In any case they see the only party that is seriously interested in governing and for the most part has its loonies in check.



    L i b
    Rakas21
    KimKallstrom
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Smith , but I've reached the point where I don't care anymore. I think the Labour Party died a long time ago and that's probably for the best. Corbyn is useless, disingenuous and highly warped wheras Smith is merely dull and slightly pathetic.

    Mean while the liberal democrats remain hopeless and tainted beyond measure, probably unfairly but that's politics.

    This May government is perhaps the most passionless, cynical government in history with a collection of very dodgy, individuals who see brexit as a wonderful opportunity to sell missiles to despots.

    I think the real opposition will be from those conservatives with some form of conscience. In any case they see the only party that is seriously interested in governing and for the most part has its loonies in check.

    L i b
    Rakas21
    KimKallstrom
    One of the more interesting things missed by some about the government is that despite being unable to come up with a unified Brexit vision, the cabinet actually has more state educated members than any government since Attlee. It will be interesting to see if May delivers on her rhetoric.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    One of the more interesting things missed by some about the government is that despite being unable to come up with a unified Brexit vision, the cabinet actually has more state educated members than any government since Attlee. It will be interesting to see if May delivers on her rhetoric.
    Yes i did notice that. It's Because of May not being part of the Old Boys club. There could well be a Cameronian insurgency in the future.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Yes i did notice that. It's Because of May not being part of the Old Boys club. There could well be a Cameronian insurgency in the future.
    While i do imagine there are some proper toffs who think that rich people know best and the poor should be kept in their place i don't think Cameron or Osbourne were ever guilty of that. Politically Cameron was a mild Thatcherite and pretty pragmatic and i do think that although he never understood poverty (this was Osbourne's main problem), i do think that both genuinely did want to make the country a better place.

    Other than May (her focus on merit stems from her background - middle class daughter of a vicar done good) i think people will be surprised how little the change in background across the cabinet will change things.

    Personally i would like to see Gove, Osbourne and Crabb come back.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    While i do imagine there are some proper toffs who think that rich people know best and the poor should be kept in their place i don't think Cameron or Osbourne were ever guilty of that. Politically Cameron was a mild Thatcherite and pretty pragmatic and i do think that although he never understood poverty (this was Osbourne's main problem), i do think that both genuinely did want to make the country a better place.
    No, I agree. I don't know about Osborne- I had to laugh when I'm Cleggs Memoirs he recalls Osborne being against social housing as it would create labour voters ...


    Other than May (her focus on merit stems from her background - middle class daughter of a vicar done good) i think people will be surprised how little the change in background across the cabinet will change things.
    I've noticed that seemingly most working class Tories are inclined to favour grammar schools...


    Personally i would like to see Gove, Osbourne and Crabb come back.
    Crabb might come back on the future, but sadly I think Osborne and Gove are history whilst May is in power. May loathes Gove.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Owen has the right to call him out on his actions, criticism of his leadership isn't a personal attack.
    I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to implying he was anti-semitic. He also makes claims that Corbyn is unelectable and whilst he is electable, when he has no way of possibly knowing this. He often deliberately distorts things Corbyn has said, a tactic most politicians use. Corbyn does not engage in that sort of activity. I am quite happy for any politician to face genuine criticism.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to implying he was anti-semitic. He also makes claims that Corbyn is unelectable and whilst he is electable, when he has no way of possibly knowing this. He often deliberately distorts things Corbyn has said, a tactic most politicians use. Corbyn does not engage in that sort of activity. I am quite happy for any politician to face genuine criticism.
    Except they are genuine criticisms and he does genuinely have close associations with people who have outright stated they want all Jews in the world killed.

    Also loled @ your insinuation that one has to be pro-Israel to be dead set against Hamas as any civilised person would be - a terrorist organisation whose charter states that they aim to rid the world of Jews and who celebrated their election victory by throwing opposition politicians off of buildings to kill them and who are against all peace deals on the basis that they have to recognise Israel's right to exist, who purposely target innocent civilians and who use Palestinians as human shields in order to maximise the death toll stood further their aims. What's wrong with you?! I know you're in the cult but pull the other one :laugh:
 
 
 
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