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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    So to be a real Christian is to believe this book, in it's entirety, no cherry picking? ....I really want to believe you're of this opinion because there's a lot of it you just haven't read.

    Good for him.
    Well, I don't really understand how you can call yourself Christian and not follow the core religious text from which the central tenants of the faith are from, you know what I mean? If you believe in the values of Christianity but you don't believe that the Bible is the solely divinely inspired holy book and that Christ is the one true Lord and Saviour then you are not a Christian, it's really quite simple
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    Meh, it's not like Christians go around murdering everyone who works on Sundays. This is just another aspect of the Bible that should be ignored because it is limited by the context in which it was written. CofE numbers have fallen rapidly anyway, so it isn't like their outdated opinions have an effect anymore.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Look you started this conversation so don't try and make me out to be a bad person because I answered your question, alright? Your assumption that I do nothing to help people is also false as I do voluntary work and donate to various charities. One of my jobs is even helping old people haha.

    I think you need to go and read the NT properly because you have clearly misunderstood the message of Jesus. Yes of course we are called to be loving to other people but the simple fact of the matter is that those who sin go to hell and part of the love that Jesus commanded from Christians is to tell people when they are in danger of it.

    In the NT we are encouraged to not associate with christians who are sinning and this bishop obviously falls under that category as he is blatantly sinning whilst being in a position of spiritual authority. The requirements for bishop-hood are laid out in the NT clearly as a man being the husband of one wife who does engage in sexual sin. This bishop clearly violates that rule
    lol ik that and i am genuienly interested i just cant see your viewpoint because as far as i can see your only basis for these views are the views held in your book which have no basis at all themselves and you still havent answered why it is a sin, this is the problem people have with religion is that there seems to be no reason for a lot of things and just saying 'its a sin' isnt an answer. im not saying your a bad person for not agreeing with homosexuality btw even if i am gay im jsut saying it makes no sense and the fact that i dont want this to go on forever because clearly we arent going to meet common ground and i have housework to do.
    well great for you that is great but how can you say that that makes you a 'better' or 'more proper' christian than my mum who cared for the elderly and the sick also.
    How can i misunderstand something which is entirely subjective? i have read parts of the NT even as an atheist because i think it has got some good messages however the difference is that i take the parts i like and agree morally with and then apply these in daily life not some of the more backwards bigoted views it insinuates.
    im sorry but you have absolutely no right to tell me or anyone else you perceive to be 'sinning' that they will go to hell. If you think that then fine but you dont have to tell that to other people who clearly dont believe it. Neither side can be sure they are right so neither should go around preaching to the other, just let everyone live in peace.
    Well fair enough if you believe that but what about the pope then? who says that catholics should apologise to the gay community for how they have been treated in the past.
    Tbh someone's sexual preference should have no implication on their job.
    anyway i genuinly have things to do because home alone so if you want to reply ok but i cant guarantee i will
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Well, I don't really understand how you can call yourself Christian and not follow the core religious text from which the central tenants of the faith are from, you know what I mean? If you believe in the values of Christianity but you don't believe that the Bible is the solely divinely inspired holy book and that Christ is the one true Lord and Saviour then you are not a Christian, it's really quite simple
    I am not religious, but I do agree with you on this. Well, in so much as I find the debate around who can and who can't call themselves a follower of a religion ridiculous.

    But you haven't addressed my point, the bible is full of unpleasantness; Old and New Testament. You subscribe to the WHOLE thing? I doubt it.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    lol ik that and i am genuienly interested i just cant see your viewpoint because as far as i can see your only basis for these views are the views held in your book which have no basis at all themselves and you still havent answered why it is a sin, this is the problem people have with religion is that there seems to be no reason for a lot of things and just saying 'its a sin' isnt an answer. im not saying your a bad person for not agreeing with homosexuality btw even if i am gay im jsut saying it makes no sense and the fact that i dont want this to go on forever because clearly we arent going to meet common ground and i have housework to do.
    well great for you that is great but how can you say that that makes you a 'better' or 'more proper' christian than my mum who cared for the elderly and the sick also.
    How can i misunderstand something which is entirely subjective? i have read parts of the NT even as an atheist because i think it has got some good messages however the difference is that i take the parts i like and agree morally with and then apply these in daily life not some of the more backwards bigoted views it insinuates.
    im sorry but you have absolutely no right to tell me or anyone else you perceive to be 'sinning' that they will go to hell. If you think that then fine but you dont have to tell that to other people who clearly dont believe it. Neither side can be sure they are right so neither should go around preaching to the other, just let everyone live in peace.
    Well fair enough if you believe that but what about the pope then? who says that catholics should apologise to the gay community for how they have been treated in the past.
    Tbh someone's sexual preference should have no implication on their job.
    anyway i genuinly have things to do because home alone so if you want to reply ok but i cant guarantee i will
    God doesn't always give a reason, he doesn't even give me a reason for some of the stuff he asks me to do, he just does it. The point is that God is the embodiment of love and goodness and therefore by default anything which He regards as sin is bad and evil. Don't ask me why, it's just how it is. Quibbling the point is meaningless because God is an immortal everlasting being. I'm not a theologian, just an ordinary person trying to get by in life tbh. The bishop being homosexual wouldn't be a problem but it's the fact that he's a practising homosexual is what goes against the Bible.

    I don't consider myself a better Christian than your mother, only that she is misguided in her attitude towards the sinfulness of homosexual acts. She can hold the opinion that homosexual acts are not sinful if she so wishes, good for her, but it is not what the Bible teaches.

    It is clearly not subjective and I've given you the appropriate NT verses above to suggest it is not. If you wish to disregard those verses in favour of your own view of God then that is fine but it is false also. Your faith is none of my business, but do consider yourself warned.

    Jesus commanded that Christians preach the gospel and part of that includes telling people they are sinning. I'm sorry if you don't want or like to hear it but that is what Jesus says. If you disagree with Jesus then you are not a Christian. I can't personally speak for catholicism as I'm not a catholic christian but I do agree that there should be some kind of official apology from the Pope to the gay community. We are called to hate the sin and love the sinner, not to persecute the sinner.

    I agree in ordinary circumstances but in matters of faith I think the religious requirements of the relevant faith should be adhered to otherwise what's the point? You might aswell throw it all out and call it an atheist church
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    I am not religious, but I do agree with you on this. Well, in so much as I find the debate around who can and who can't call themselves a follower of a religion ridiculous.

    But you haven't addressed my point, the bible is full of unpleasantness; Old and New Testament. You subscribe to the WHOLE thing? I doubt it.
    Many things in the world are full of unpleasantness, the Bible merely records and offers a solution to the sinfulness of mankind by way of providing Jesus. Bare in mind the vast majority of the suffering we see in the world today is due to the sinfulness of mankind either directly or indirectly.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Many things in the world are full of unpleasantness, the Bible merely records and offers a solution to the sinfulness of mankind by way of providing Jesus. Bare in mind the vast majority of the suffering we see in the world today is due to the sinfulness of mankind either directly or indirectly.
    Please stop avoiding my question. Do you or do you not subscribe to a New Testament that teaches that, for example, women may not speak in church, that they must be subordinate to their husbands, that they may not be permitted to teach a man, that any questions they have they must go to their husband for answers, that a woman is the glory of man and not god (man is the glory of god) and that she ought to veil her head because of this?
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    Please stop avoiding my question. Do you or do you not subscribe to a New Testament that teaches that, for example, women may not speak in church, that they must be subordinate to their husbands, that they may not be permitted to teach a man, that any questions they have they must go to their husband for answers, that a woman is the glory of man and not god (man is the glory of god) and that she ought to veil her head because of this?
    Yes, I believe that it is the Word and Will of God that these things happen. Clearly God put those commands there for a reason and for the benefit of the whole Church community. Just as God is the head of Jesus the husband is the head of the wife. This is the divinely ordained order and should be followed by all Christians
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Look you started this conversation so don't try and make me out to be a bad person because I answered your question, alright? Your assumption that I do nothing to help people is also false as I do voluntary work and donate to various charities. One of my jobs is even helping old people haha.

    I think you need to go and read the NT properly because you have clearly misunderstood the message of Jesus. Yes of course we are called to be loving to other people but the simple fact of the matter is that those who sin go to hell and part of the love that Jesus commanded from Christians is to tell people when they are in danger of it.

    In the NT we are encouraged to not associate with christians who are sinning and this bishop obviously falls under that category as he is blatantly sinning whilst being in a position of spiritual authority. The requirements for bishop-hood are laid out in the NT clearly as a man being the husband of one wife who does engage in sexual sin. This bishop clearly violates that rule
    I am gonna be the only one to stand with you here. I totally agree. Yes, Jesus went to the sinners. He didn't spend as much time with the believers becuase he didn't come to talk to those who are already saved. He came to talk to the sinners to save them. Yes we should love them and care for them, but there comes a point where we must realise they are sinning and therefore rebelling against God and his plan for their life. The whole point is we love sinners so that they come to know Jesus and stop sinning. Everyone slips up now and then, its part of our fallen human nature, however fundamentally, to be in an active homosexual relationship is sinning. God doesn't love them any less but it still breaks his heart and that is why Jesus called us to show them the love of God so thy can be lead away from sin. And this is coming from a Christian who has struggled with bisexuality and used to believe it wasn't an issue until i looked deeper into scripture and saw how God hates it, as it goes agisnr how he created us. I and many others would say there is no issue to have an attraction, i still sometimes do but its when you indulge in that and enter into a relationship whether its celibate or sexual which is sinful. And as it goes against the holy word of God, i belive we shouldn't have a sinner telling people about God and how to live a holy life when they themselves aren't adhering to scripture.
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    (Original post by matt991610)
    I am gonna be the only one to stand with you here. I totally agree. Yes, Jesus went to the sinners. He didn't spend as much time with the believers becuase he didn't come to talk to those who are already saved. He came to talk to the sinners to save them. Yes we should love them and care for them, but there comes a point where we must realise they are sinning and therefore rebelling against God and his plan for their life. The whole point is we love sinners so that they come to know Jesus and stop sinning. Everyone slips up now and then, its part of our fallen human nature, however fundamentally, to be in an active homosexual relationship is sinning. God doesn't love them any less but it still breaks his heart and that is why Jesus called us to show them the love of God so thy can be lead away from sin. And this is coming from a Christian who has struggled with bisexuality and used to believe it wasn't an issue until i looked deeper into scripture and saw how God hates it, as it goes agisnr how he created us. I and many others would say there is no issue to have an attraction, i still sometimes do but its when you indulge in that and enter into a relationship whether its celibate or sexual which is sinful. And as it goes against the holy word of God, i belive we shouldn't have a sinner telling people about God and how to live a holy life when they themselves aren't adhering to scripture.
    Thank you for your support, Matt
    I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from with this.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Yes, I believe that it is the Word and Will of God that these things happen. Clearly God put those commands there for a reason and for the benefit of the whole Church community. Just as God is the head of Jesus the husband is the head of the wife. This is the divinely ordained order and should be followed by all Christians
    Ok so God is the head of Jesus makes husbands being the heads of their wives OK...you brainwashedly follow this command without question but at least you've tried a little to explain why it's not as **** as it sounds.

    What about all the other points in my list? When your done with those I have countless others as a well studied ex-Christian if you like...

    And to keep things on track; his ways are mysterious I know, but any guesses as to why practicing homosexuality is wrong???
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    Ok so God is the head of Jesus makes husbands being the heads of their wives OK...you brainwashedly follow this command without question but at least you've tried a little to explain why it's not as **** as it sounds.

    What about all the other points in my list? When your done with those I have countless others as a well studied ex-Christian if you like...

    And to keep things on track; his ways are mysterious I know, but any guesses as to why practicing homosexuality is wrong???
    My reasoning is that if God created man and woman then surely He knows what is best for them in terms of marriage and relationships? I know it goes against the modern day feminist ideology but it is what it is. I must admit that I struggled with the idea at first but after some prayer I realised why. The marital relationship is compared to the relationship between Christ and Church, in that just as Christ gave His life for the Church and loves her so must the husband do for the wife. So really if you think about it the husband has the raw deal here in the Christian marriage, not the wife.

    Please list these other points, I must have missed them

    As for homosexuality, I have no idea, my only guess is of a biological and carnal nature, namely, in that the rectum area is not as well made for penetrative sex as the vaginal area to my knowledge.
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    Ok so God is the head of Jesus makes husbands being the heads of their wives OK...you brainwashedly follow this command without question but at least you've tried a little to explain why it's not as **** as it sounds.

    What about all the other points in my list? When your done with those I have countless others as a well studied ex-Christian if you like...

    And to keep things on track; his ways are mysterious I know, but any guesses as to why practicing homosexuality is wrong???
    Ok. I'm not very good at the verses so maybe the other guy can back me up on this. But from the way i understand it, God made two partners who were perfect for each other in the beginning. As everyone knows they were Adam and Eve, male and female. God made sex as a pleasurable way of expressing love between a man and a woman. He made the experience of making babies a joy as well as having a baby a joy. Now, this experience of sex was made to be a special pleasurable experience shared between a married man and woman, to create babies, and where condoms are involved, to just enjoy the experience. Homosexuality is going against God's desire and plans for our life. Its against creation, becauee the way God created sex was between a man and woman. Its not designed to be same sex because God designed male and female to be the perfect companions for eachother. I don't know if i explained this well but basically its against the nature of creation that God created in the beginning. If i have gone wrong somewhere or explained something against scripture, I'm sure the other guy will correct me. Now i have to say that this belief doesn't mean i hate gay people, in fact i am called by Jesus, as are other christians to love them and to welcome them, but also to bring them to the cross of Jesus to take away their sin. All this conversion therapy **** is totally wrong i agree, but j do think that people can be attracted but not acr upon feelings. There is nothing wrong with having an attraction, as irs something you feel and something i have struggled with as a bi person but i have taken the decision to follow God and to not act upon it. So i have an attraction to both sexes but i don't act upon it or enter into a relationship so therefore its ok. Its like an addiction to porn or something. Many people in the church our age are attracted to it and have struggled withrit but have stopped. If i knew someone was watching porn and they were in a position of power, i would expect them to step down until they take back control of their urges. I don't hate them and i care for them but i don't care for the sin. If they then stop watching it but still have an addiction and an craving to watcj itit, as long ad they don't act upon it that is fine imo
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    As for homosexuality, I have no idea, my only guess is of a biological and carnal nature, namely, in that the rectum area is not as well made for penetrative sex as the vaginal area to my knowledge.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    My reasoning is that if God created man and woman then surely He knows what is best for them in terms of marriage and relationships? I know it goes against the modern day feminist ideology but it is what it is. I must admit that I struggled with the idea at first but after some prayer I realised why. The marital relationship is compared to the relationship between Christ and Church, in that just as Christ gave His life for the Church and loves her so must the husband do for the wife. So really if you think about it the husband has the raw deal here in the Christian marriage, not the wife.

    Please list these other points, I must have missed them

    As for homosexuality, I have no idea, my only guess is of a biological and carnal nature, namely, in that the rectum area is not as well made for penetrative sex as the vaginal area to my knowledge.
    That does not pass in any way, shape or form as reasoning. One could argue that you are doing the opposite of reasoning by refusing to use your own critical thinking and defaulting to shrugging your shoulders as you abandon your common sense.

    Here is that list again, copy pasted from above;

    "Please stop avoiding my question. Do you or do you not subscribe to a New Testament that teaches that, for example, women may not speak in church, that they must be subordinate to their husbands, that they may not be permitted to teach a man, that any questions they have they must go to their husband for answers, that a woman is the glory of man and not god (man is the glory of god) and that she ought to veil her head because of this?"

    Lol at the man getting a raw deal. Read a history book.

    And you think that it's proportionate to describe the 'not as well made rectum' as an enabler of something "shameful", "wicked" and "abusive" (in quotation marks taken directly from NT scripture)?
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    I'm not really sure what to think of this tbh
    Surely as a devoted Christian he would believe that homosexual relationships are sinful? And if he was a Christian (I'm not denying that he is one) he would repent of his sins and not continue to live that life. We're all sinners but what separates the Christian from the non-Christian is that the Christian acknowledges that he has disobeyed God and has put his faith in Jesus Christ to be forgiven for his sins against God. He would be engaged in the struggle against sin, not openly embracing it.

    I'm not necessarily saying that homosexuality is a sin but in the Christian perspective homosexual relationships are.
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    That does not pass in any way, shape or form as reasoning. One could argue that you are doing the opposite of reasoning by refusing to use your own critical thinking and defaulting to shrugging your shoulders as you abandon your common sense.

    Here is that list again, copy pasted from above;

    "Please stop avoiding my question. Do you or do you not subscribe to a New Testament that teaches that, for example, women may not speak in church, that they must be subordinate to their husbands, that they may not be permitted to teach a man, that any questions they have they must go to their husband for answers, that a woman is the glory of man and not god (man is the glory of god) and that she ought to veil her head because of this?"

    Lol at the man getting a raw deal. Read a history book.

    And you think that it's proportionate to describe the 'not as well made rectum' as an enabler of something "shameful", "wicked" and "abusive" (in quotation marks taken directly from NT scripture)?
    I've already said that I agree with all that, why do you keep asking me the same question?

    Like you said yourself; 'His ways are above our ways.' I'm not God, I can't answer that question.
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    Ok so God is the head of Jesus makes husbands being the heads of their wives OK...you brainwashedly follow this command without question but at least you've tried a little to explain why it's not as **** as it sounds.

    What about all the other points in my list? When your done with those I have countless others as a well studied ex-Christian if you like...

    And to keep things on track; his ways are mysterious I know, but any guesses as to why practicing homosexuality is wrong???
    First of all, why are you so angry about God and anti theist? What has has God ever done to you?!! Come to Soul Survivor 2017 and see what amazing things God can do in people's lives. It will change your life. Honestly. And secondly, i would personally like to agree with the other guy on his homosexuality stance, however i would like to seperate myself from his views upon Women. I totally disagree with his views. My church and many other christians believe women can be in positions of power and that it is wrong for the man to "control" his wife. My dad did that and he wasn't a very nice person when my parents were married. And if you say i am hypocritical and cherry picking bits of scripture i agree with, then read some of Malcom Duncan's stuff on women in church and male and female equality. He shows a scriptural basis for women leader's and other stuff on female equality. He is a well respected and renowned pastor who leads spring harvest and my church, Gold Hill Baptist church. Also whilst i am here i would also like to say that i am pretty anti religious institions and the church of england in particular. They get themselves lost in the rituals which add no meaning to our faith and miss the incredible encounter with god. I can see why people get disillusioned because they think church is boring pews but it isn't always and shouldn't be. We worship a living God and the Anglican church turns that into a joyless, soulless experience on a sunday. However this doesn't mean i am against the church as a concept. I believe Gold hill and other churches which wre more modern have hit tbe right spot of biblically sound teaching but encountering God through the spirit. Sp church is good but the Anglican church annoys me so much as an institution as it turns people off and they don't get to see the true church which is hidden behind all the pointless rituals( apart from communion) and dirgy hymns when qe should worship God in a free way, not a restrictive traditional way. There is a time and a place for tradition but they tskr it too far.rant over!!!
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    (Original post by matt991610)
    Ok. I'm not very good at the verses so maybe the other guy can back me up on this. But from the way i understand it, God made two partners who were perfect for each other in the beginning. As everyone knows they were Adam and Eve, male and female. God made sex as a pleasurable way of expressing love between a man and a woman. He made the experience of making babies a joy as well as having a baby a joy. Now, this experience of sex was made to be a special pleasurable experience shared between a married man and woman, to create babies, and where condoms are involved, to just enjoy the experience. Homosexuality is going against God's desire and plans for our life. Its against creation, becauee the way God created sex was between a man and woman. Its not designed to be same sex because God designed male and female to be the perfect companions for eachother. I don't know if i explained this well but basically its against the nature of creation that God created in the beginning. If i have gone wrong somewhere or explained something against scripture, I'm sure the other guy will correct me. Now i have to say that this belief doesn't mean i hate gay people, in fact i am called by Jesus, as are other christians to love them and to welcome them, but also to bring them to the cross of Jesus to take away their sin. All this conversion therapy **** is totally wrong i agree, but j do think that people can be attracted but not acr upon feelings. There is nothing wrong with having an attraction, as irs something you feel and something i have struggled with as a bi person but i have taken the decision to follow God and to not act upon it. So i have an attraction to both sexes but i don't act upon it or enter into a relationship so therefore its ok. Its like an addiction to porn or something. Many people in the church our age are attracted to it and have struggled withrit but have stopped. If i knew someone was watching porn and they were in a position of power, i would expect them to step down until they take back control of their urges. I don't hate them and i care for them but i don't care for the sin. If they then stop watching it but still have an addiction and an craving to watcj itit, as long ad they don't act upon it that is fine imo
    There is only credibility to this argument if one takes the story of Adam and Eve literally. Because so much of Genesis is provably not literal, and because the story of the Garden of Eden makes enormous demands on our imagination to suspend our disbelief, there is not a single sensible reason to believe it's storytelling word for word.
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    (Original post by matt991610)
    First of all, why are you so angry about God and anti theist? What has has God ever done to you?!! Come to Soul Survivor 2017 and see what amazing things God can do in people's lives. It will change your life. Honestly. And secondly, i would personally like to agree with the other guy on his homosexuality stance, however i would like to seperate myself from his views upon Women. I totally disagree with his views. My church and many other christians believe women can be in positions of power and that it is wrong for the man to "control" his wife. My dad did that and he wasn't a very nice person when my parents were married. And if you say i am hypocritical and cherry picking bits of scripture i agree with, then read some of Malcom Duncan's stuff on women in church and male and female equality. He shows a scriptural basis for women leader's and other stuff on female equality. He is a well respected and renowned pastor who leads spring harvest and my church, Gold Hill Baptist church. Also whilst i am here i would also like to say that i am pretty anti religious institions and the church of england in particular. They get themselves lost in the rituals which add no meaning to our faith and miss the incredible encounter with god. I can see why people get disillusioned because they think church is boring pews but it isn't always and shouldn't be. We worship a living God and the Anglican church turns that into a joyless, soulless experience on a sunday. However this doesn't mean i am against the church as a concept. I believe Gold hill and other churches which wre more modern have hit tbe right spot of biblically sound teaching but encountering God through the spirit. Sp church is good but the Anglican church annoys me so much as an institution as it turns people off and they don't get to see the true church which is hidden behind all the pointless rituals( apart from communion) and dirgy hymns when qe should worship God in a free way, not a restrictive traditional way. There is a time and a place for tradition but they tskr it too far.rant over!!!
    Lol at the inappropriate use of "WHY YOU SO ANGRY?!" all over TSR as an attempt to project irrationality onto another poster in order to discredit, when they are clearly not angry.

    Been to Soul Survivor already thanks.
 
 
 
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