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B1044 – Gender Recognition Bill 2016

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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Oh, my… :laugh:
    That's not inappropriately oversized, not at all.
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    (Original post by cBay)
    Gender is a social construct, I don't see why it needs to be legally recognised whatsoever tbh.. just stick to sex for legal purposes?
    Can you prove it's a social construct? Baron-Cohen's research (among others) clearly says otherwise.

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    (Original post by Mactotaur)
    That's not inappropriately oversized, not at all.
    Sorry, but the size needs to reflect Labour signatures.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Can you prove it's a social construct? Baron-Cohen's research (among others) clearly says otherwise.

    The image is disingenuous. People can be born as the wrong sex, not gender, the problem coming when the sex and gender don't align as they usually do.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    We do list gender however, and honorifics. Also as I said to someone in the subforum, there is already intolerance, which leads to hate crimes, discrimination and violence. The people who would legally identify with the new legally recognised genders would already openly identify as non-binary or agender, it just wouldn't be legally recognised, the intolerance would still be there.
    While I accept that people identify as different genders, I'm very much of the opinion that a person's sex is what should be listed, not gender.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    You can legally change your gender from male to female and from female to male, but that is gender not sex, as sex and gender different things.

    As for the state, this is abput the state simply moving to recognise that gender isn't binary, and to move to a better system of legally changing one's gender. The state is making it legally recognised, updating the process to a more efficient, progressive system and extending anti-discrimination law, extending essentially what is already happening

    I'll get to everyone else in a moment, my phone is taking issue with the text box on TSR
    Bleh I'm confused.. so if you're born a woman with a vagina and boobies and what not, go through all the chemicals n stuff and get a penis transplant, you still can't legally change your sex to 'male'?

    That's where the problem lies in my mind, not with all this gender crap.

    But yea, I admit I'm pretty ignorant of it all.
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    (Original post by cBay)
    Bleh I'm confused.. so if you're born a woman with a vagina and boobies and what not, go through all the chemicals n stuff and get a penis transplant, you still can't legally change your sex to 'male'?
    No, only your gender, though that has its own problems and red tape.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I identify as an attack helicopter will I be protected?
    Real original...

    (Original post by Inexorably)
    No, No, No.

    Gender is an individual thing and, as already mentioned, a construct. The legal system should only be dealing with "sex" and to hell if we're going to start classifying sex as someone "who calls themselves X sex despite having Y sexual organ".

    This will be a very slippery slope if passed.
    We already recognised gender in the legal system, you get a gender recognition certificate when you legally change your gender. This bill just extends the ability to change your gender to recognise those who don't fit within the gender binary.

    Also the definition of sex isn't changing, and personally I have no interest or wish to change it. It's no more a slippery slope than the status quo, or the status quo in other Countries which go further than our status quo.

    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Real original...



    We already recognised gender in the legal system, you get a gender recognition certificate when you legally change your gender. This bill just extends the ability to change your gender to recognise those who don't fit within the gender binary.

    Also the definition of sex isn't changing, and personally I have no interest or wish to change it. It's no more a slippery slope than the status quo, or the status quo in other Countries which go further than our status quo.
    I'm offended why do you feel it is acceptable to dismiss me because of how I identify myself?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I'm offended why do you feel it is acceptable to dismiss me because of how I identify myself?
    Because you're clearly mocking the entire concept. That, or you haven't bothered to do the slightest bit of research into the topic and simply rely on the most inane phrases you can remember.
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    (Original post by cBay)
    Bleh I'm confused.. so if you're born a woman with a vagina and boobies and what not, go through all the chemicals n stuff and get a penis transplant, you still can't legally change your sex to 'male'?

    That's where the problem lies in my mind, not with all this gender crap.

    But yea, I admit I'm pretty ignorant of it all.
    You would apply to legally change your gender, not your sex. This bill allows those who are, to use terms commonly used in the Trans community, assigned fe/male at birth to legally identify as the gender they identify as, even if it isn't male or female
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I'm offended why do you feel it is acceptable to dismiss me because of how I identify myself?
    For the same reason as the asylum inpatients are

    Posted from TSR Mobile

    (Original post by Mactotaur)
    Because you're clearly mocking the entire concept. That, or you haven't bothered to do the slightest bit of research into the topic and simply rely on the most inane phrases you can remember.
    I'm giving the entire concept the respect it deserves, I do not see a reason to set policy based on tumblr.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I do not see a reason to set policy based on tumblr.
    Then we see eye to eye - did you notice any tumblr-esque language used in the bill? No, because it was written sensibly.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    While I accept that people identify as different genders, I'm very much of the opinion that a person's sex is what should be listed, not gender.
    All I would say is that is not currently the case, aside from things such as medical forms. This extends the status quo. However it seems you and toronto353 are on a similar page here of disagreeing on the status quo, which would make winning either of you over to an extension of the status quo difficult. However if either of you have any questions feel free to ask and I, and others, will do their best to answer!
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Can you prove it's a social construct? Baron-Cohen's research (among others) clearly says otherwise.
    Can you give me a brief summary of this research?

    My understanding is sex is the bits between your legs. Gender is about girls wearing pink stuff and crap like that. In that regard, it is of course a social construct in that it is drilled into us from the day we're born and so most just fall in line and follow the rules. However, there must be something going on in the heads of ancestors to cause the genders to diverge and construct that social construct in the first place, so I do feel there innate inclinations built into our brains that correlate with our sex but are not restricted to our sex.. So what I'm saying is it's both a social construct and it's not, if that makes sense? :P

    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    All I would say is that is not currently the case, aside from things such as medical forms. This extends the status quo. However it seems you and toronto353 are on a similar page here of disagreeing on the status quo, which would make winning either of you over to an extension of the status quo difficult. However if either of you have any questions feel free to ask and I, and others, will do their best to answer!
    I think you may misunderstand my point. I believe that the status quo of recognising only male and female genders (via sex) is the right approach to take. While I appreciate that people may identify as other genders, I believe that only male and female genders should have any official status.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    You would apply to legally change your gender, not your sex. This bill allows those who are, to use terms commonly used in the Trans community, assigned fe/male at birth to legally identify as the gender they identify as, even if it isn't male or female
    Then the problem is surely with the sex laws, not with the gender laws.

    Ah I'm just not getting it I'm afraid. What benefit is there to legally identifying as something rather just identifying as it?
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I think you may misunderstand my point. I believe that the status quo of recognising only male and female genders (via sex) is the right approach to take. While I appreciate that people may identify as other genders, I believe that only male and female genders should have any official status.
    I do apologise for that. Is there any questions you have which answers to might convince you otherwise?
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I think you may misunderstand my point. I believe that the status quo of recognising only male and female genders (via sex) is the right approach to take. While I appreciate that people may identify as other genders, I believe that only male and female genders should have any official status.
    Where do intersex fit, then, considering they have parts of both sexes?
 
 
 
Updated: September 19, 2016
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