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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    The idea of a man in the sky watching us all, deciding who to torment and who to reward (without ever trying to save anyone from hell) for following his questionable morals of rape, misogyny, abuse and slavery, makes me laugh.
    Not a man (an unembodied mind), not in the sky (transcendant of the universe and all physical reality), not deciding who to torment or reward (we can make that choice ourselves), not 'without ever trying to save anyone' (ever heard of Christ dying for our salvation?) and not condoning rape, misogyny, abuse or slavery.

    At least know what you're arguing against! There were about five straw men in that one sentence!

    (Original post by 1010marina)
    But being convinced a god exists!? I can't even comprehend how people can really, truly believe, beyond doubt
    It's called faith for a reason. Nobody, except those who have had direct experience, claim to know for certain. But, then,nothing, even science, is knowable for certain. So your argument is pointless.
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    well, i'm a maths/sciency guy from a young age so when i heard about the big bang and started to understand more about how it couldve happened (then contiunued with antimatter, wont go into that though) i didnt really think a God created the world.
    There are two levels to cruelty that can exist for others to be kind. on a small level which is ok e.g. someone gets mugged or someone loses a family member. Fair enough, i can see the reasoning behind God allowing that. But these days its more to the extreme like terrorism. God doesn't do anything about killing thousands of completly innocent people which completly over rides any kind acts we can perform. I feel God should have a tiny more control over the extreme bad times people can have.
    Despite this though i still believed luck was to do with a "God" like being rather than karma. due to past experiences, the reverse of karma happened more often than it shouldv'e :l . Sometimes I pray to God for others and if the prayer is just it sometimes occurs. A couple of times I have been a tad greedy and asked to make my life easier e.g. "can you not set 7 hours of homework tomorrow" which in return generally leads to bad results.

    But hey, anyone who believs in God and is reading this, don't think i'm trying to dis christianity or anything, i'm not against it, i just dont like "God"'s actions.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Not a man (an unembodied mind), not in the sky (transcenant of the universe and all physical reality), not deciding who to tormet or reward (we can make that choice ourselves), not 'without ever trying to save anyone' (ever heard of Christ dying for our salvation?) and not condoning rape, misogyny, abuse or slavery.

    At least know what you're arguing against! There were about five straw men in that one sentence!



    It's called faith for a reason. Nobody, except those who have had direct experience, claim to know for certain. But, then,nothing, even science, is knowable for certain. So your argument is pointless.
    Just to be clear though, you're espousing a particular Christian view of salvation here. Namely, broadly speaking, Arminianism.

    A lot of famous Christians (the two masters of the Catholic and Reformed Churches - Augustine and Calvin) would take issue with the view you're describing here. God, to them, does choose whom to save. He alone is responsible for the unfolding events of the world and everything is under his control. Everything. He predestines some onto eternal glory and others onto death and destruction.

    I agree that the man in the sky stuff is not what any Christian believes but I take huge exception that they don't believe that God handpicks the losers an the winners. A lot of them do think that.
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    Because I was not indoctrinated as a child, or at least not to the point that I could not use my critical thinking skills to deduce the patent unlikelihood of there being an all-knowing super being, particularly one written about in some book, of which there are many, each featuring a slightly different all-knowing magic man in the sky and a slightly different set of fairy tales concerning him.
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    i am not an atheist

    *( am a math/science guy btw )
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Not a man (an unembodied mind), not in the sky (transcenant of the universe and all physical reality), not deciding who to tormet or reward (we can make that choice ourselves), not 'without ever trying to save anyone' (ever heard of Christ dying for our salvation?) and not condoning rape, misogyny, abuse or slavery.

    At least know what you're arguing against! There were about five straw men in that one sentence!



    It's called faith for a reason. Nobody, except those who have had direct experience, claim to know for certain. But, then,nothing, even science, is knowable for certain. So your argument is pointless.
    Ah, a nitpicker. Excellent. Which God are we talking about, again? Jupiter and Zeus were certainly men in the sky, if you're desperate to look beyond the sarcasm...

    He does decide who to torment and who to reward because he ??? literally ??? made ??? the ??? rules ???

    If you take morality as simply wanting to reduce suffering, God falls far from that goal...

    And assuming you're talking about the Christian God (since you referenced Jesus), you're quite mistaken
    "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."
    Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."
    And that's just form thirty seconds on Google. Actually read your book (or, indeed, the majority of religious texts) and you'll find similar, worse and of course, the sunshine and rainbows parts too.

    -----

    And this is what I don't understand. No evidence points towards any kind of God, but the lack of evidence is usually taken as a lack of existence in science (e.g. why would we believe in unicorns or mermaids when we have never had concrete evidence of either. Propel are ridiculed for THAT, but not believing in God? Its weird)

    I have less gripes with the old gods, like Greeks or sun gods or the Aztec sacrifice gods ... But I still don't get it

    Furthermore... I dont see why religion is the answer. FAITH makes more sense... But religion is weird, frankly, since everyone interprets it differently...
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    I'm not. I think you're just as bad putting your entire belief in the theories of scientists as those that have a faith and religion. You're both choosing to believe in something that hasn't been proven. I put myself in the agnostic category - I acknowledge that either side has their own amount of evidence and same lack of actual proof and either could be true (or false), therefore I remain open to either idea, i.e. I believe that there could be a God, but I won't actually believe that there is or isn't until I see concrete proof, which there isn't or people wouldn't be debating the topic and picking their side.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    i am not an atheist

    *( am a math/science guy btw )
    Why do people keep mentioning that they're into maths/science? it's pretty irrelevant.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Why do people keep mentioning that they're into maths/science? it's pretty irrelevant.
    there is an assumption that STM guys are all atheists... it is wrong. *
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    (Original post by the bear)
    there is an assumption that STM guys are all atheists... it is wrong. *
    It's not really wrong, especially at the top levels. Something like 90%+ of the members of the American Academy of Sciences are non-believers for example. I imagine it's higher in the UK.

    But I don't see why all mention you're into science/maths. You don't study anything pertaining to God. It's pretty inconsequential.
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    The concept of a 'divine being' watching over us is just absurd.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    It's not really wrong, especially at the top levels. Something like 90%+ of the members of the American Academy of Sciences are non-believers for example. I imagine it's higher in the UK.

    But I don't see why all mention you're into science/maths. You don't study anything pertaining to God. It's pretty inconsequential.
    it is important for the young folk of TSR to know that there are scientists from the top University who are not atheists. *
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    (Original post by the bear)
    it is important for the young folk of TSR to know that there are scientists from the top University who are not atheists. *
    are you a top scientist?
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    are you a top scientist?
    are you a top atheist ?

    :holmes: *
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    Whenever there is any doubt about the available information you always must stand by the null hypothesis that 'nothing' is true unless proven. A being as extraordinary as God requires extraordinary evidence, and nothing of the sort has thus far emerged. In fact, plenty of evidence to the contrary has, against the existence of God. By the very nature of God, one cannot say that he certainly does not exist. However, it is very realistic to say he almost certainly does not exist, based upon the mountain of evidence against him.

    The only half-justifiable divine stance is believing in a creator - a being who made the universe - but then buggered off somewhere afterwards; you could argue that the universe is too complex to be an accident, although again there is no evidence to suggest it has divine origin either. So you could weakly hypothesise that a creator God exists, but it is nothing more than a theory based upon tenuous lines of thought. A God of scripture, however, is clearly an invention of mankind. The scripture is contradictory both to itself and science, and the idea that a being that is so powerful it could create a universe would care in the slightest whether or not you have sex before marriage, have a homosexual relationship, wear garments made of two different materials, pour some water over your child's head or anything else as insignificant as this is just ludicrous. Sure, you may argue that it's nicer to have an omnibenevolent being watching over you and ensuring you live forever in the afterlife, but just because it's a nice idea that doesn't mean it's true. Believing 'just in case' is equally as foolish, because this suggests you don't really believe in God at all and are just too scared of the alternative.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    the young folk of TSR
    You certainly sound very grown-up and experienced. Do you not think scientific theories are conflicting with religious teachings?
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    (Original post by honour)
    You certainly sound very grown-up and experienced. Do you not think scientific theories are conflicting with religious teachings?
    not at all. a theory is only a supposition so has low ontological status. *
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Not a man (an unembodied mind), not in the sky (transcenant of the universe and all physical reality), not deciding who to tormet or reward (we can make that choice ourselves), not 'without ever trying to save anyone' (ever heard of Christ dying for our salvation?) and not condoning rape, misogyny, abuse or slavery.

    At least know what you're arguing against! There were about five straw men in that one sentence!



    It's called faith for a reason. Nobody, except those who have had direct experience, claim to know for certain. But, then,nothing, even science, is knowable for certain. So your argument is pointless.
    Well, the difference is that many scientific ideas are exhaustively evidenced, as opposed to religion.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    It's called faith for a reason.
    It certainly is. Faith, in this case, is belief in something that can't be proved. Another name for it is superstition, and religions are simply institutionalised superstitions.

    Belief that black cats bring good luck is just as valid as Christianity and Islam, and is far less likely to get a non-believer killed, injured, persecuted or abused so is much more acceptable.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    not at all. a theory is only a supposition so has low ontological status. *
    You are confusing a theory with a hypothesis, scientifically speaking.
 
 
 
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