My thoughts on brexit- anyone agree?

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    (Original post by Edmund Monfort)
    The whole thing's a bit silly really. I can bet my bottom dollar that the deal we get will efffectively be us remaining a part of the EU in all but name as we'll need to accept free movement of people to retain acces to the single market.

    How disappointed many of the xenophobic voters will be then.
    I can't see that free movement will be on the table.

    I voted remain but I don't think you can put the entire result down to Xenophobia. It seems like there is also the fear that the EU is going wrong. That seems quite rational to me.
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    (Original post by Pars12)
    ... because it drives down wages. Globalisation is good for the economy for similar reasons ... but it seems to have made the rich/poor divide worse.

    Anyway, I thought this was about the free movement for EU citizens and whether it is sustainable. Why would there be any impact on non-EU immigration? I'm not sure about your premise because it involves some quite sharp accounting but I do agree that immigration has been a scapegoat.
    -Dependency ratio decrease
    -increase workforce = increase in production = economic growth
    -Enterprise
    -They pay tax - government richer - better education/NHS etc.



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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    People are quick to forget that the entire London Underground system was built by immigrants
    Is that a defence?
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    (Original post by Pars12)
    Is that a defence?
    I'm for Brexit, voted for it in fact. But I'm not against immigration, we wouldn't be where we are as a society if it weren't for immigration
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    1: the UK has voted for brexit and as such we need to leave the EU and decrease immigration.
    Why did you mention the specific detail of decreasing immigration? The referendum result was a mandate to leave the EU, not to employ a specific immigration control. Seems like you're following that tired narrative that Leave was all about immigration and xenophobia, when in actual fact the primary motive was to regain parliamentary sovereignty and repatriate law-making.

    Seemed a bit cheap to put that in.*
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    (Original post by AdeptDz)
    -Dependency ratio decrease
    -increase workforce = increase in production = economic growth
    -Enterprise
    -They pay tax - government richer - better education/NHS etc.

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    This is predictive economics. Sounds good, doesn't work.

    e.g. Monetarism under Thatcher

    -lame ducks to the wall
    -smaller, stronger manufacturing base remains
    -exports rise
    -They pay tax - government richer - better education/NHS etc.

    ... didn't happen
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    I'm for Brexit, voted for it in fact. But I'm not against immigration, we wouldn't be where we are as a society if it weren't for immigration
    Yes, I see that. Immigration has enriched our society although to me the economic argument is less important, if it can be proved at all. But do you think that there is a point at which immigration can get so rapid that it destabilises society?
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    How the **** can a bunch of romanian card fraudsters be allowed free and open access in here and yet some poor **** from Aus/India who's a doctor can't.
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    OP for once I actually agree with you 100%. However one thing I would expand on is not just an overall decrease of immigration (a net immigration of 330k per year is not sustainable), but also the ability to control the quality of skilled labour.

    I am all for countries and unions defending their interests. I am glad that the UK is honest about its intentions so far and is not afraid to explore new trading opportunities with the rest of the world, even if it means sacrificing a portion of its EU trades.

    I feel that Theresa May has been surprisingly outspoken in delivering the referendum's instructions and messages, which makes me wonder whether she was secretly a Brexiter.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Which ones? I havent seen it. I cnat see how anyone can argue with a one side in a negotiation deciding to protect its own interests. I havent seen anyone saying they musnt do that and must give in to all our demands at its own expense? Who is saying that?
    Nigel Farage
    Boris Johnson
    Dan Hannan (who I usually have time for)
    Various commentators on the tabloids and the telegraph i.e.
    Here:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-if-they-make/


    Why is it damaging (they will just ignore it) and why is it incredibly dangerous? it just sounds dumb.
    Going into negotiations with people who you are lambasting as compatible to the third reich has the potential to be very damaging for developing a future relationship.

    If the patriotic 'believe in Britain' message falls flat we can expect to see a more nationalistic (xenophobic) message of the EU trying to spite us.

    For instance observe the comments regarding Slovakia's president declareing he will fight for the rights of resident Slovaks in the U.K. as part of any agreement- ('who cares what that pathetic country thinks?' Etc )
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    The controlling rather than reducing is what was said by the brexiters.

    You like to use flowery words, but you dont say much other than state the obvious. I really cant see your point.
    midnightice

    Somewhat- the brexiters have pulled an effective backpedal on this- I distinctly remember reading and hearing a number of times that it was an opportunity to reduce net migration to the 10000s. If you don't think reducing immigration was a central tenet of the brexit vote you need your head examined. (I should add there's nothing inherently wrong with that position)



    I am glad you find it obvious but for many brexiters, point 2 seems to be beyond them. Alas.

    So your thoughts on Brexit are the UK should get the best deal it can and the EU will try and get the best deal it can, as though it were some kind of negotiation?
    Uh, it is a negotiation...
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    OP for once I actually agree with you 100%. However one thing I would expand on is not just an overall decrease of immigration (a net immigration of 330k per year is not sustainable), but also the ability to control the quality of skilled labours.

    I am all for countries and unions defending their interests. I am glad that the UK is honest about its intentions so far and is not afraid to new trading opportunities with the rest of the world, even if it means sacrificing a portion of its EU trades.

    I feel that Theresa May has been surprisingly outspoken in delivering the referendum's instructions and messages, which makes me wonder whether she was secretly a Brexiter.
    Theresa May followed her head rather than her heart I imagine as did Corbyn.
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    In my opinion the vote was rigged and we never voted for it and nor does our vote mean anything its simply an illusion that you're in control. I reckon we will leave the EU and then return with EU status just to deliver a financial shock to the UK and the rest of the world for the upcoming new world order.
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    (Original post by fksociety)
    No, you just need to educate yourself.
    Educate us then. Tell us what the Tories have done which was so bad.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    1: the UK has voted for brexit and as such we need to leave the EU and decrease immigration. The UK should try and get the best deal possible and trigger article 50 within the next two years.

    2: The EU as a political institution has a right to exist unless it is democratically disbanded. subsequently it has a right to preserve itself and its interests. Thus whilst it should hope to give a good deal to the UK it is quite legitimate in not doing something which it sees as jeopardiseing its future existence- The same way that an independent Scotland not being able to keep the £ etc is not constitutive that the UK hates Scotland but that the UK wishes to preserve itself and its interests and us not Biddej to potentially burden itself unduly in the name of goodwill.

    Although we disagree on much, this seems roughly to be the approach taken by our new PM

    Anyone else in agreement?
    Pretty much.

    Ironically though, with UK at 5% unemployment, immigration will be a necessity.
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    (Original post by 08hussainf)
    In my opinion the vote was rigged and we never voted for it and nor does our vote mean anything its simply an illusion that you're in control. I reckon we will leave the EU and then return with EU status just to deliver a financial shock to the UK and the rest of the world for the upcoming new world order.
    Hmm....

    I suppose the Jews are behind it all as well?
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    People are quick to forget that the entire London Underground system was built by immigrants
    What a bizarre choice for defence of immigration. Perhaps we don't hold the London Underground in such a prized place in our hearts as you?*

    It's worth pointing out also that the vote for Brexit was won in part due to the overwhelming feeling that those outside of London and the home counties are largely forgotten about in government policy. Your response ironically highlights this point.*
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    (Original post by thickleftard)
    immigration is pretty much just a scapegoat for all these people who are too dumb, patriotic and nationalistic to realise that the Tory government is responsible for half their problems
    I don't agree that the Tories are responsible but I do agree that immigration as such is not the problem.
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    (Original post by Pars12)
    ... because it drives down wages. Globalisation is good for the economy for similar reasons ... but it seems to have made the rich/poor divide worse.
    That's a strawman argument to be fair and not always true. In 2003 or around then when the A8 joined the EU and immigrated in their masses to work in the UK, wages actually increased substantially. It was only when the financial crisis hit and then austerity kicked in a few years later that things got quite a bit worse. In certain sectors like lorry driving and nursing, for instance, some Brits feel hard done by and I can understand that totally. But that isn't the EU's fault. What is really wrong is that our government aren't willing to train people properly. Our apprenticeships are absolutely dismal. 40-50 years ago an apprenticeship could see you qualify as an engineer or an accountant. Now all it does is justify national public restaurants employing people on less than minimum wage, colluding with the government in the process to label it as an 'apprenticeship'. May will always inevitably throw this 'more apprenticeships' statistic around in parliament as a claim that they are fuelling employment in the UK. They might be but it's of the lowest quality.

    The sad thing is, those people up North who voted to leave will be the ones who lose out most. As long as our government aren't willing to fund better training for people who don't aren't suited to an academic route, things will not improve. In fact, they will get worse for people like that whose regions previously depended on massive investment from the EU in terms of their infrastructure. Just recently when I was in Northern Ireland I witnessed just how many projects there were initiated by the EU such as the railway system and other fantastic public services.
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    (Original post by Paraphilos)
    That's a strawman argument to be fair and not always true. In 2003 or around then when the A8 joined the EU and immigrated in their masses to work in the UK, wages actually increased substantially. It was only when the financial crisis hit and then austerity kicked in a few years later that things got quite a bit worse. In certain sectors like lorry driving and nursing, for instance, some Brits feel hard done by and I can understand that totally. But that isn't the EU's fault.
    Yes, I should have said that it drives down wages for the ones that were here in the first place. That is the whole point. You get cheaper workers. Management gets a pay increase. Everyone is happy. . And in a global economy why spend money training Brits when there is a vast reservoir of trained staff in Eastern Europe who would be delighted to work here?

    Maybe the Brexiters were just better at reading the writing on the wall.
 
 
 
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