Clive Lewis to succeed Corbyn, and be Britains first black PM?

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    There is a deeply corrosive relationship between media, corporations and political classes that is corrupting our entire debate and democracy, and serving to lower debate and often the media behaviour of lesser quality outfits border on inculcation- I've seen throughout my life how the standards have dropped, how it's become less and less objective, more illogical, perverse and Orwellian. To suggest that people all over the world who are sickened by this and opposing it are all 'conspiracy theorists' when there are so many intelligent people on board, is just nothing more than smear tactics to demean the cause of objectivity, civilization and truth.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    What an utterly dishonest comment. If you support Corbyn and his political programme you are a Corbynite.

    You clearly support Corbyn, defend him, attack his enemies and are extremely complimentary about his allies. If you're going to be dishonest, take a very clear position and then put on this pathetic affectation of, "No, I'm actually totally neutral and unbiased. Oh I'm so superior, I'm almost on another plane of existence" then we have nothing to talk about. I'm not interested in game-playing

    Also not interested in the paranoid, fraudulent crap that anyone who has a contrary opinion is somehow "propagandising" or part of some authoritarian conspiracy. Grow up, ffs

    KimKallstrom
    OP needs to introduce me to his dealer.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I'm thinking clearly that the global establishment is way behind the curve...alright I was pushing the envelope and speculating about world affairs the deterrent. But the EU will be dead by 2020 and Hillary is simply not going to win. I know that much.
    Will your views change if you're wrong on both counts?
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    OP needs to introduce me to his dealer.
    You've met illegaltobepoor haven't you?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    That's contradiction. I have taken a clear position, you just don't tolerate anyone with a different view.
    Obviously you have problems with reading comprehension. The comma could easily be read as a "by". The dishonesty is in taking a very clear pro-Corbyn position and then claiming not to be a Corbynite (which just means someone who is pro-Corbyn... which you are).

    You continue with the dishonesty. As I made clear before, we have nothing to talk about if that is the case.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    OP needs to introduce me to his dealer.
    Ah, the suppository turns up on orders, for moral support.

    Brown nosing is not to be 'sniffed at' though, you could go far by it....
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I am not indoctrinated
    That's right, everyone who takes a different position to yours must be indoctrinated.

    You take Corbynite positions across the board, and then adopt the stance so beloved of people who are both highly egotistical and of only average intelligence, to claim "I am so unbiased, and so neutral. I'm so very, very superior and above the partisan, trbal fray". Pretending to be above ordinary politics allows them to feel as though they are above other people, somehow less prone to partisan sensibility. The reality is you are completely partisan; it oozes out of every comment you make, it inheres in every word you write.

    I'm sorry but you are a joke. I will not engage with you further as life is too short to deal with deluded, self-asborbed people like you.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Will your views change if you're wrong on both counts?
    I won't be. Just watch.

    Really I'd just like to see the end of Labour, a split and preferably the end of the Tories too. They are a depressing pain in the arse. I think the remain, social liberal wing of the Tories and the 'right of Labour' ,if you can call it that, remain lot are the same party basically-they seem to like each other a lot and agree on much, if you take the Etonions and Bullingdon bunch out of it. Then there is the left of Labour, social conservative and leave Tories, and libertarianism(some overlap with the former here), signs of which is in Farages UKIP policies.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I think the remain, social liberal wing of the Tories and the 'right of Labour' ,if you can call it that, remain lot are the same party basically-they seem to like each other a lot and agree on much
    And that's why we can't take you seriously. Comments like that above, that Labour moderates are basically the same as the Cameroons shows that you are completely clueless and inclined to believe hilariously paranoid, propaganda publications like The Canary.

    Labour moderates wouldn't even join the Lib Dems because they consider them too free market, and yet somehow you claim they are the same as the Cameroons?

    Unfortunately your views are typical for less-educated Corbynites and fellow travellers (which you are); the ones who are particularly gullible and liable to believe whatever bizarre conspiracy theory or vitriolic attack against "Blairites" (i.e. anyone who fails to support the homophobic, anti-semitic, terrorist-sympathising leader) as long as it comes from someone who claims to be "anti-establishment".
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    That's right, everyone who takes a different position to yours must be indoctrinated.

    You take Corbynite positions across the board, and then adopt the stance so beloved of people who are both highly egotistical and of only average intelligence, to claim "I am so unbiased, and so neutral. I'm so very, very superior and above the partisan, trbal fray". Pretending to be above ordinary politics allows them to feel as though they are above other people, somehow less prone to partisan sensibility. The reality is you are completely partisan; it oozes out of every comment you make, it inheres in every word you write.

    I'm sorry but you are a joke. I will not engage with you further as life is too short to deal with deluded, self-asborbed people like you.
    Thats *******s and you know it. I said the precise opposite of that. I talk to loads of people who have different opinions. I was talking about smear tactics.

    Rubbish, it means that you won't subscribe to something that you don't agree with because what's the point? I'm not partisan at all, I support grammar schools,
    s, I support high corporate taxes, but low income taxes. I don't support any of their deluded foreign policy missions. I support Brexit. I am vehemently opposed to TTIP. I am open to other health systems. I think inequality is a massive problem, and particularly food banks. I am sickened by the destruction of civil liberties(which they wanted more of) by the Blair government. I am a republican, I want a federal republic for the UK.

    There is nothing the last twenty years that has come close to that. Why should I nail my colours to an establishment party?

    There are loads of people, who due to legitimate instincts, all over the world, of just being normal humans, detest current establishment. Why should they want more of it, to validate it, especially in it's most unappealing form which is New Labour and it's never ending rage and ***** fights? They have no appeal anymore, zero, beyond a relatively small base of insiders. This is a fact, the electorate can't stand them. They are arguing in their own interests, their own grasping need for more glory. No-one cares, everyone is exasperated with that particular set of people. They are like remain, exactly analogous only with less support.

    Deluded and self-asborbed is another good piece of Orwellian projection -witness NuLab establishment's reaction and debate after the EU referendum. Plus wheeling out Kinnock, Brown and Blair to try and win it. That, son, is a joke.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    And that's why we can't take you seriously. Comments like that above, that Labour moderates are basically the same as the Cameroons shows that you are completely clueless and inclined to believe hilariously paranoid, propaganda publications like The Canary.

    Labour moderates wouldn't even join the Lib Dems because they consider them too free market, and yet somehow you claim they are the same as the Cameroons?

    Unfortunately your views are typical for less-educated Corbynites and fellow travellers (which you are); the ones who are particularly gullible and liable to believe whatever bizarre conspiracy theory or vitriolic attack against "Blairites" (i.e. anyone who fails to support the homophobic, anti-semitic, terrorist-sympathising leader) as long as it comes from someone who claims to be "anti-establishment".
    I've never made any 'vitriolic attacks'. I just dislike that government and it's legacy- fans of it will tell you this is because you are a simpleton and abuse you.. I beg to differ, I could go through all their terrible policies and how ludicrous it is for them to blame anyone else for the potential loss of the union. And I;m certainly not homopobic, or anti-semitic, or wishing innocent people die in terrorism thanks.

    And I didn't say moderates, I said the right of the party- they could happily form a coalition. Respected thinkers like Peter Hitchens agree with me on this, and the last twenty years of Blairite parliament, not to mention how they treated what should be their voters with contempt and lost touch.
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    So much misrepresentation and diversion going on. You've still not answered a reasonable question I asked you, about policies and the virtue of them being elected, on inequality and social mobility, this is when some people who are fans of Blair ethos, switch to abuse, obsfucation or denial.

    And the point about conflict of interests and corruption stands, though again you tried to misinterpret me deliberately and smear me.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    A"anti-establishment".
    Sometimes, as evidenced by the EU dogma, when people are given so little choice, and such oppressive conditions, what is intuitive and instinctive has to be relied upon, you can't validate them anymore, the consensus has to be broken.

    The fact the attacks and smears are out of proportion does suggest an establishment trying to cling onto it's power before it crumbles, this is a known historical trend, empires attacking with the most vehemence before they fall, and I think that this really is still underestimated as a revolutionary phase in history, rather than the temporary turbulence and irrationality it is seen as.

    They have underestimated the true sense of alienation and the fact people have nothing to lose, and the extent to which they are hated. That is self absorption.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Obviously you have problems with reading comprehension. The comma could easily be read as a "by". The dishonesty is in taking a very clear pro-Corbyn position and then claiming not to be a Corbynite (which just means someone who is pro-Corbyn... which you are).

    You continue with the dishonesty. As I made clear before, we have nothing to talk about if that is the case.
    My clear pro-Corbyn position, is on the simple, general economics and inequality side, and in my belief that Owen Smith is put forward by people in the bubble, in order to be a soft left front who in reality will not go again the grain of where the financial interests lie nor rock the boat. (You may call this a conspiracy, I call it a perfectly legitimate belief, with plenty of historical evidence from all over the world.. Candidates are put forward and vested interests wield power. Americans are not 'dumb' for seeing it about Clinton- people have basic sense in this area.) It doesn't mean I have to agree with Corbyn about everything else, or that I am making an 'affectation' - just that this inequality is now massively important and as many people feel, it may be the only juncture they get to do something radical economically, and change the paradigm- with all that precipitates from that, which is a different and better kind of society into the future.

    People are not all thinking like that because they are perverse, subversive people, many are because they are sickened or dismayed by things and want to make it better. Some people have direct experience of how the orthodoxy has made this country and hate it. I'm sure your fairly privileged, you sound elitist and snobbish in some of your posts, and this is part of the Labour disconnect IMO- try experiencing the worst end of it and the lower end, you'd see why people hate establishment so much, and think Labour has contempt for them.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And I;m certainly not homopobic, or anti-semitic, or wishing innocent people die in terrorism thanks
    Corbyn does, and anyone who opposes him is immediately called a Blairite/Red Tory etc, Even solid left-wingers like Lisa Nandy, people who were involved in bringing Blair down like Tom Watson (who also incidentally was the driving force taking on Murdoch in the News of the World scandal), are attacked with this scatter gun approach. There are two types of people who do this; the first are people who are just malicious and are using it as an attack on people they know are not Blairit. The second are people who are clueless about the Labour Party, its various factions and their politics. I'd say you probably fall into the latter.

    And I didn't say moderates, I said the right of the party
    There is no "right" of the Labour Party. It's a democratic socialist party, the most centrist people are centrist social democrats.

    they could happily form a coalition
    I'm sorry but you are absolutely clueless on this point. But please; which MPs are you talking about? Which MPs are you claiming would go into coalition with the Tories? It's clear to me that your assessment on this comes not from anything resembling even a modicum of understanding of the Labour Party, its various factions and their ideologies, but from the simplistic mindset of Corbynites and their fellow travellers who have lied so much about "go and join the Tories" that they've started to believe it. It's pathetic.

    Respected thinkers like Peter Hitchens
    Peter Hitchens a respected thinker? :lol: You can't be serious. You only have to hear his views on drug laws (that basically anyone caught with any amount, including personal use, should be imprisoned for 20 years) to realise how much of a moron he is. He claims the reason we have drug problems in the UK is because our laws aren't hard enough. It's an idiotic position given there are countries with the death penalty for drug offences and that hasn't stopped them.

    Peter Hitchens is a reactionary, hard-right, pompous fool. He adopts positions on the sole basis that he wants to seem unfashionably old-school. It's an affectation.

    Please, point out which Labour MPs you are claiming would go into coalition with the Tories. Please name them specifically, and then say why they would go into coalition with the Tories.

    If you are unable to do that then you are completely discredited on this
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Sometimes, as evidenced by the EU dogma, when people are given so little choice
    The people were given a choice on the EU. They were given a choice and they voted out, and now we are on our way out.

    The fact the attacks and smears are out of proportion does suggest an establishment trying to cling onto it's power before it crumbles
    What attacks? By who? Against who? You speak in these kind of conspiratorial generalities that sound more like a badly-written movie than reality.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    The Canary .
    *

    One of the worst publications on the Internet. And that's saying something *
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)




    Peter Hitchens a respected thinker? :lol: You can't be serious. You only have to hear his views on drug laws (that basically anyone caught with any amount, including personal use, should be imprisoned for 20 years) to realise how much of a moron he is. He claims the reason we have drug problems in the UK is because our laws aren't hard enough. It's an idiotic position given there are countries with the death penalty for drug offences and that hasn't stopped them.

    Peter Hitchens is a reactionary, hard-right, pompous fool. He adopts positions on the sole basis that he wants to seem unfashionably old-school. It's an affectation.

    Please, point out which Labour MPs you are claiming would go into coalition with the Tories. Please name them specifically, and then say why they would go into coalition with the Tories.

    If you are unable to do that then you are completely discredited on this
    Not until you point out which outcomes and policies specifically are essential to implement via 'electable' Labour, and to keep the Tories out over, and how the Blair government was essential when inequality went up so much, and social mobility down, from under Thatcher. But actually, let's not bother, we would both be quits on that then but this is interminable.

    We disagree about Hitchens, I find him refreshingly independent, or 'affected' as you see it, thoughtful and original. He is only 'hard-right' in the current cultural leftist context of Britain... pretty moderate I think. He adopts position based on reasoning, which I think is rigorous, although I don't always agree, and his own principles.

    Regardless of prevention, our criminal justice system is permissive and seemingly doesn't want criminals afraid of law breaking.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    *

    One of the worst publications on the Internet. And that's saying something *
    Absolutely. The Canary's audience has this kind of childish, embittered, paranoid, angry mindset that is almost pitiful; they get extremely upset when a media outlet reports something that is unfavourable to Corbyn (and I'm not talking about a biased article or attack, merely reporting something Corbyn did that would cause people to think less of him), and they need a publication that will soothe their feelings and appeal to their angry prejudices.

    This article attacking Owen Smith is an excellent example of just how awful a publication it is.

    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/22/m...iths-campaign/

    The first paragraph says, "Owen Smith has been accused of corruption" and the word accused is hyperlinked to a tweet from George Galloway. The rest of an article is an incredibly flimsy conspiracy theory that points out Gloria de Piero, who supports Owen Smith (as did pretty much the entire PLP) received a donation from the polling company Survation, and Survation was also engaged by the Smith campaign to help run phone banks. And did I mention that Gloria de Piero supports Owen Smith? Obviously completely corrupt.

    In the childish world of The Canary and Corbynites, merely pointing out that two people or companies have a connection immediately becomes a conspiracy. "Because, don't you see, I proved they are linked!!".

    I would call it yellow journalism but that would be an insult to yellow journalism. It's simply a propaganda rag that makes its money appealing to a particularly immature and emotionally sensitive audience.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    The people were given a choice on the EU. They were given a choice and they voted out, and now we are on our way out.



    What attacks? By who? Against who? You speak in these kind of conspiratorial generalities that sound more like a badly-written movie than reality.
    Yes, but only after Farage beating the drum endlessly and again, being outside consensus so getting a different type of treatment, and then we were up against the Beeb. The EU itself suppressed democracy and turned people to extreme parties all over Europe. This was part of a wider political, interlinked trend. New Labour are linked to it.

    By New Labour establishment, and I'd say certain journalists like Kuenssburg, on Corbyn specifically.
 
 
 
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