What a world without God means

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    I'm an atheist and my life is perfectly fulfilling without the promise of an afterlife. It's actually reassuring to know my screw-ups will die with me.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    They are the only person that can answer that question.
    So your answer is that atheism leaves you out in the cold with a worldview of nihilism and futility and your solution is just to leave people to themselves.
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    I apologise if this sounds preachy, I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to provide an alternate view on the matter, one which requires no faith in anything.

    The Therigatha of the Pali Cannon, Buddhism's equivalent of the bible, has a story about a woman who's child had died. She refused to accept that the child was dead and used to carry it's corpse around with her (it was an infant) and take care of it as if it were still alive, she made herself believe that her child was only sick, not dead. So she used to go from house to house asking if anyone had medicine for her child to 'cure' it. The Buddha happened upon her one day and told her to look for medicine from a house in which no one had died. At the time the infant mortality rate was really high and people lived with their elders, so every household had experienced death. The woman spent all day searching and when she saw that every household had experienced the death of a loved one, she realised that death and suffering were consequences of life itself and was finally able to accept her child's death. She was later ordained as a nun and achieved arhatship*.

    What this means is that life really is pointless and is full of suffering. But the way to ending your suffering isn't through belief in a deity or anything else, it's through accepting that this is the way things are, identifying the cause of your suffering and then ending it by tearing at it's roots. The story above is a parallel of just about every religious person's way of dealing with reality. The woman represents the theists, the dead child is reality and the woman's belief that the child was alive is their belief in god(s). Theists are too busy deluding themselves to seek answers, just as the woman was too busy deluding herself to move on from her child's death. The Buddha described such people as "running up and down the bank of the river, but never building a raft and making it across to the other shore."

    In short, it's better to accept reality than to hold onto comforting fairy tales.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    floods, apocalypse, killing of peopleschildren, sacrificing his own kid, squashing sampson, plagues i can go on and on..
    By what measure are you telling me these things are (arguably) wrong? If morality is subjective then I could simply say that I disagree that these things are immoral and your arument falls apart. What you're doing is appealing to some kind of objective standard of morality.

    So thank you for agreeing with the key premise in the moral argument:

    1) If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
    2) Objective moral values do exist.
    3) Therefore, God exists.

    Much abliged.
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    (Original post by Rachel58)
    I'm an atheist and my life is perfectly fulfilling without the promise of an afterlife. It's actually reassuring to know my screw-ups will die with me.
    I'm glad that your delusions of purpose (fun? education?) are enough to satisfy you.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Why enjoy life 'now while you still can'? The point I was making is that enjoyment now is futile since neither you nor anyone else will benefit or remember, under atheism. Please explain what objective reasons I have for trying to get enjoyment out of life if I end up the same regardless - without any recollection of joy?
    Why is enjoyment now futile? Just because it wont mean anything in a hundred years doesnt mean it means nothing.You are not 100 years in the future.You are here right now.So it means something now in the present moment.Just because it wont mean anything in future has no bearing on whether it means something now.Even if you dont remember it.It is still enjoyable to do right now.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    I'm glad that your delusions of purpose (fun? education?) are enough to satisfy you.
    They're not delusions. I love challenges (something you don't get in Heaven, where everything is gifted to you!), learning, baking, chatting to my friends etc etc and I love knowing that my life doesn't have to live up to someone else's plan for me. It's my life and I love knowing that I can live it how I want, without risking going to Hell or similar. At one point it'll end and that's fine with me!
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    So your answer is that atheism leaves you out in the cold with a worldview of nihilism and futility and your solution is just to leave people to themselves.
    I only said that they are the ones to define meaning. Perhaps I wasn't clear earlier, I meant that life has no predefined meaning. Individuals give life meaning with religion, family, hobbies, etc. I do not see it as cold that life has no pre-defined meaning. And yes, I am of course extremely nihilistic. It allows me to better cope with life.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Why is enjoyment now futile? Just because it wont mean anything in a hundred years doesnt mean it means nothing.You are not 100 years in the future.You are here right now.So it means something now in the present moment.Just because it wont mean anything in future has no bearing on whether it means something now.Even if you dont remember it.It is still enjoyable to do right now.
    Futile in that it achieves nothing of any value. You will end up the same whether you enjoyed life or not, you don't even get to remember whether you enjoyed life, your life has no purpose besides death (you can't change your future - it is completely out of your hands).
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    By what measure are you telling me these things are (arguably) wrong? If morality is subjective then I could simply say that I disagree that these things are immoral and your arument falls apart. What you're doing is appealing to some kind of objective standard of morality.

    So thank you for agreeing with the key premise in the moral argument:

    1) If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
    2) Objective moral values do exist.
    3) Therefore, God exists.

    Much abliged.
    That is the most stupid arguement i have heard this month... by your logic this is true; all cats have four legs, my dog has four legs ergo my dog is a cat.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    By what measure are you telling me these things are (arguably) wrong? If morality is subjective then I could simply say that I disagree that these things are immoral and your arument falls apart. What you're doing is appealing to some kind of objective standard of morality.

    So thank you for agreeing with the key premise in the moral argument:

    1) If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
    2) Objective moral values do exist.
    3) Therefore, God exists.

    Much abliged.
    Morality is a by-product of human intelligence. It derives from the understanding of the consequences of events. For example: murder is ending another organisms life, rape is physically damaging and mentally scarring, etc. Without beings capable of exhibiting sufficient intelligence to hold moral values, morality doesn't exist. Through realising the consequences of our actions, our species has developed morality.
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    (Original post by Rachel58)
    They're not delusions. I love challenges (something you don't get in Heaven, where everything is gifted to you!), learning, baking, chatting to my friends etc etc and I love knowing that my life doesn't have to live up to someone else's plan for me. It's my life and I love knowing that I can live it how I want, without risking going to Hell or similar. At one point it'll end and that's fine with me!
    How do you feel knowing that no matter how many challenges you confront, you still achieve nothing? You will end up the same as someone who confronted no challenges, or someone who had a miserable life, or someone who neer existed at all? Theism offers a chance to give meaning to your endeavours - why not take it up? Notice I say theism, not religion. Religion is primarily a human construction, it can only help in getting people closer to God, but none is the answer.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    Morality is a by-product of human intelligence. It derives from the understanding of the consequences of events. For example: murder is ending another organisms life, rape is physically damaging and mentally scarring, etc. Without beings capable of exhibiting sufficient intelligence to hold moral values, morality doesn't exist. Through realising the consequences of our actions, our species has developed morality.
    That isn't a defence. Saying morality is evolved makes it by definition subjective, and so al anyone has to say is that their opinion on morality differs from yours for all your moral-centric arguments against God to collapse.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    How do you feel knowing that no matter how many challenges you confront, you still achieve nothing? You will end up the same as someone who confronted no challenges, or someone who had a miserable life, or someone who neer existed at all? Theism offers a chance to give meaning to your endeavours - why not take it up? Notice I say theism, not religion. Religion is primarily a human construction, it can only help in getting people closer to God, but none is the answer.
    Because I don't want to believe that every choice I make isn't my own!

    And "still achieve nothing"? The Roman Empire was huge and a massive achievement, though it faced challenges to achieve this - but now it's gone. Does that mean it never was an achievement? No. The same way as me, a shy girl who never puts her hand up in class, singing in front of a crowd a few years back is an accomplishment I'll never let anyone say meant nothing!
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    That isn't a defence. Saying morality is evolved makes it by definition subjective, and so al anyone has to say is that their opinion on morality differs from yours for all your moral-centric arguments against God to collapse.
    It wasn't supposed to be a defence. You were treating morality as if it was created by an external force.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    That is the most stupid arguement i have heard this month... by your logic this is true; all cats have four legs, my dog has four legs ergo my dog is a cat.
    No, by my logic this argument is patently invalid because not all animals with four legs are cats. That is what the first premise would have to be for the logic to be sound, but then the premise would clearly be false.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    It wasn't supposed to be a defence. You were treating morality as if it was created by an external force.
    Morality would need to be objectively measured for a successful moral argument against God's existence. Evolution does not provide this objecitivty (we could have evolved with a completely different set of moral codes), so where are you getting it from?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Without God, it becomes acceptable to do bad things if no one is looking - who would ever find out?
    And with God, it becomes acceptable to do anything that the individual - or the church, or scholars, or charlatans - thinks that God has commanded.

    By the way, there is not much consensus between believers of different stripes and unbelievers about what is good and what is bad, so this argument doesn't hold. Even if someone believes in a god, he can still do 'bad' things consistent with what his God commands, but not with what you or I think is bad. In short, belief in a god is no insurance against 'bad' actions, and this is a roundabout false dilemma (much like Pascal's discredited wager).
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    (Original post by Rachel58)
    Because I don't want to believe that every choice I make isn't my own!

    And "still achieve nothing"? The Roman Empire was huge and a massive achievement, though it faced challenges to achieve this - but now it's gone. Does that mean it never was an achievement? No. The same way as me, a shy girl who never puts her hand up in class, singing in front of a crowd a few years back is an accomplishment I'll never let anyone say meant nothing!
    I'm sorry but possibly upon your death, and certainly upon humanity's death, it objectively really did mean nothing
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    By what measure are you telling me these things are (arguably) wrong? If morality is subjective then I could simply say that I disagree that these things are immoral and your arument falls apart. What you're doing is appealing to some kind of objective standard of morality.

    So thank you for agreeing with the key premise in the moral argument:

    1) If God does not exist, onjective moral values do not exist.
    2) Objective moral values do exist.
    3) Therefore, God exists.

    Much abliged.
    That's a logical fallacy right there. You've assumed that god is required for objective morality to exist but you've got nothing to back it up. Socrates disproved your first point in his Euthyphro dilemma.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM
 
 
 
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