Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Centrists: Why not the Lib Dems? Watch

Announcements
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jamestg)
    If they refused to go into a coalition, another GE would have been called. That GE would have brought a period of instability, possible uncertainty and deeper economics chaos. Clegg (and Cameron) both wanted to avoid that, and Clegg acted on behalf of the country -not his party.
    I think that's a rather rose tinted view or clegg (and Cameron).

    It wasn't anything to do with patriotism, clegg just saw an opportunity to get power and took it (not saying there's anything wrong with that). It also helped that he was an orange Booker and far closer to the tories than many others were in his party like Farron.

    Patriotism doesn't really come into at all. Just a mixture of power and ideology.**
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    I'm a Lib Dem supporter because I am an Orange Booker but as that fraction is nearly non-existent in the party anymore, I wouldn't vote for them. But I'm still a supporter in that I'd wish to see a centrist, pro-EU, pro-free-market liberal party.
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I think that's a rather rose tinted view or clegg (and Cameron).

    It wasn't anything to do with patriotism, clegg just saw an opportunity to get power and took it (not saying there's anything wrong with that). It also helped that he was an orange Booker and far closer to the tories than many others were in his party like Farron.

    Patriotism doesn't really come into at all. Just a mixture of power and ideology.**
    I disagree with you (and I agree with jamestg). Clegg knew that he had to go with the Tories or the economy would collapse, regardless of his political views. It was just easier to stomach for him than it would have been for someone like Tim Farron.

    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    I'm a Lib Dem supporter because I am an Orange Booker but as that fraction is nearly non-existent in the party anymore, I wouldn't vote for them. But I'm still a supporter in that I'd wish to see a centrist, pro-EU, pro-free-market liberal party.
    I'm an orange-booker, and whilst I don't agree with Tim on everything, there isn't a single party anywhere near orange-book liberalism anymore. It's worthwhile being in the party where the faction is still there (there are a surprisingly large number of members of liberal youth that seem to be orange-booker or thereabouts) and waiting for it to come back into prevalence again. That's only my opinion though
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Because I've made the mistake of voting for them before.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I disagree with you (and I agree with jamestg). Clegg knew that he had to go with the Tories or the economy would collapse, regardless of his political views. It was just easier to stomach for him than it would have been for someone like Tim Farron.



    I'm an orange-booker, and whilst I don't agree with Tim on everything, there isn't a single party anywhere near orange-book liberalism anymore. It's worthwhile being in the party where the faction is still there (there are a surprisingly large number of members of liberal youth that seem to be orange-booker or thereabouts) and waiting for it to come back into prevalence again. That's only my opinion though
    Perhaps. There are many Tories who're liberals and come very close to my beliefs. The OB faction may be popular among the LY but I'm not sure that it is. Many OBers have migrated to the Tories (though May and her band have nothing whatever to do with liberalism).
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Perhaps. There are many Tories who're liberals and come very close to my beliefs. The OB faction may be popular among the LY but I'm not sure that it is. Many OBers have migrated to the Tories (though May and her band have nothing whatever to do with liberalism).
    I know one or two that defected to the Tories and then realised how authoritarian May was and defected back. If someone like George Osbourne was Conservative Leader, I'd understand it, but I can see May going on for quite a while.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    People arent really aware of the Lib Dems, as they arent given as much chance to be present in the media as, say, UKIP is (with only 1 MP). So, how can centrists support a party they dont actually know about?
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Perhaps. There are many Tories who're liberals and come very close to my beliefs. The OB faction may be popular among the LY but I'm not sure that it is. Many OBers have migrated to the Tories (though May and her band have nothing whatever to do with liberalism).
    And I'm one of them lol.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I just don't think they can win.
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I disagree with you (and I agree with jamestg). Clegg knew that he had to go with the Tories or the economy would collapse, regardless of his political views. It was just easier to stomach for him than it would have been for someone like Tim Farron.



    I'm an orange-booker, and whilst I don't agree with Tim on everything, there isn't a single party anywhere near orange-book liberalism anymore. It's worthwhile being in the party where the faction is still there (there are a surprisingly large number of members of liberal youth that seem to be orange-booker or thereabouts) and waiting for it to come back into prevalence again. That's only my opinion though
    it wasn't about patriotism. He had a chance of power and took it which no one can blame him for. ideologically he was reasonably close to the tories as well.

    It was nothing to do with patriotism. I really don't see the connection.

    The biggest disappointment of clegg for me is not tuition fees but how he jumped on the anti labour bandwagon, accusing them of wrecking the economy and blaming public spending for the financial crash.

    He regularly toed the 'labour will wreck the economy' line despite the fact that there were ten years of successive growth under labour.*

    He helped set back Keynesian economics a generation.*
    Online

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    We got a referendum for a fairer system. If the Labour Party weren't split on it we might have got somewhere. The case is a lot more clearer now with the rise of UKIP, SNP and the Greens (to some extent).
    You got a joke of a referendum between the system we already had and a system literally nobody wanted, and you didn't even get an agreement where the Conservatives actually supported it. It doesn't matter that the case is clear. People get the case and support PR, that's partly why so many voted Lib Dem in the first place, but now there is no way to make it happen - Turkeys will not unnecessarily vote for Christmas. We literally might never get another shot at it in our liftimes.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    I would consider them if they weren't such Europhiles.
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    You got a joke of a referendum between the system we already had and a system literally nobody wanted, and you didn't even get an agreement where the Conservatives actually supported it. It doesn't matter that the case is clear. People get the case and support PR, that's partly why so many voted Lib Dem in the first place, but now there is no way to make it happen - Turkeys will not unnecessarily vote for Christmas. We literally might never get another shot at it in our liftimes.
    I mean, it's not like Labour pledged to look into electoral reform in 2001 when they actually had a majority Government to implement it, is it? Oh wait....whoops.

    The Tories wouldn't have supported it, and if we hadn't have gone into coalition the economy would be a lot worse off than it is today.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    it wasn't about patriotism. He had a chance of power and took it which no one can blame him for. ideologically he was reasonably close to the tories as well.

    It was nothing to do with patriotism. I really don't see the connection.

    The biggest disappointment of clegg for me is not tuition fees but how he jumped on the anti labour bandwagon, accusing them of wrecking the economy and blaming public spending for the financial crash.

    He regularly toed the 'labour will wreck the economy' line despite the fact that there were ten years of successive growth under labour.*

    He helped set back Keynesian economics a generation.*
    It was for country, rather than for party. It was patriotic in that sense. If the economy wasn't at risk, the Lib Dems would have either got a better deal or not gone into Government.

    Labour borrowed huge swathes of money that left us vulnerable. Admittedly, it's not Labour's fault the economy crashed in itself. But there are a lot of things Labour could and should have done differently at the time (for example, Gordon Brown selling off loads of Gold at ridiculously low prices).
    Online

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I mean, it's not like Labour pledged to look into electoral reform in 2001 when they actually had a majority Government to implement it, is it? Oh wait....whoops.

    The Tories wouldn't have supported it, and if we hadn't have gone into coalition the economy would be a lot worse off than it is today.



    It was for country, rather than for party. It was patriotic in that sense. If the economy wasn't at risk, the Lib Dems would have either got a better deal or not gone into Government.

    Labour borrowed huge swathes of money that left us vulnerable. Admittedly, it's not Labour's fault the economy crashed in itself. But there are a lot of things Labour could and should have done differently at the time (for example, Gordon Brown selling off loads of Gold at ridiculously low prices).
    You can't expect Labour or the Tories to vote to reduce their amount of seats. For obvious reasons it ain't gonna happen, even if the leadership actually supported it. Any third party who has the leverage of a hung parliament to make it happen is beyond insane not to use it. You sacrificed a democratic choice and any chance of power for your party for generations, for a few extra weeks of stability. Sometimes a necessary change means a bit of turmoil, and it was a betrayal of every value the Lib Dems profess to hold not to fight for it.
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    You can't expect Labour or the Tories to vote to reduce their amount of seats. For obvious reasons it ain't gonna happen, even if the leadership actually supported it. Any third party who has the leverage of a hung parliament to make it happen is beyond insane not to use it. You sacrificed a democratic choice and any chance of power for your party for generations, for a few extra weeks of stability. Sometimes a necessary change means a bit of turmoil, and it was a betrayal of every value the Lib Dems profess to hold not to fight for it.
    That first line is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. "Hey guys, don't expect us to actually vote for our manifesto pledges". Come on, seriously??

    I'm not expecting MPs to not rebel, but Labour easily had a large enough majority to push it through with Lib Dem help and we both know that.

    We fought for it. We still fight for it. But to most people, getting their child's schools extra funding, taking them out of income tax and improving our mental health services is more important than electoral reform so we took a referendum in the hope we could win it whilst ensuring we implemented so much more of our manifesto.

    In any case, we pledged a referendum on STV. The only compromise was the system itself.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    The Lib Dems - for the lefties who are embarassed to admit it.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    I feel like this article on Jeremy Corbyn's speech pretty much answers this: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....l-speech-.html
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    meh elections is like farm yard animals voting for which butcher they would prefer.

    Political parties dont exist for the people they exist for big business and or special interest groups such as unions etc. its all about the money none of them care at all about the man in the streets.

    Personally I am aware of my low status in society due to been autistic and hope with hard work and getting a decent salary i can some status. I am not asking for royal patronage or something just you know to have dignity.

    The current Labor party want to practice communism which is basically Me losing the only way of getting ahead in life. So I will vote Conservative as I always have for the same reason I always do.

    It would be nice to have Labor party that are not communist or borderline communist to form an effective opposition and these tuition fee rises scare me.

    So I guess Lib dems rising as a possible alternative would be good but I always got the impression they were more left then Labor not sure if that is possible anymore but aren't they currently far left?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I think that's a rather rose tinted view or clegg (and Cameron).

    It wasn't anything to do with patriotism, clegg just saw an opportunity to get power and took it (not saying there's anything wrong with that). It also helped that he was an orange Booker and far closer to the tories than many others were in his party like Farron.

    Patriotism doesn't really come into at all. Just a mixture of power and ideology.**
    Why cant it be both? Clegg says in his book there's no point in trying to get yourself elected if you're not going to take the opportunity to change things when you get the chance.

    It is also a truism the country was in a dire state when they took over and a period of instability really would've made things worse and probably only brought back the same answer.

    (Original post by Hachik0)
    I would consider them if they weren't such Europhiles.
    This is one a see a lot. Now lib dems are not going for people who want hard breit if thats where you stand fair enough. But lib dems have long called for EU reform in terms of payments and subsidies. (its in their 2005 manifesto).

    (Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
    Because I've made the mistake of voting for them before.
    This is also interesting, labour voters who said theyd never vote for them b4 cos if the iraq war are now flocking back the same can be said of UKIPers to the tories now they are getting brexit. I wonder how long it will take for the lib dems to win back previous voters. Who would you vote for now?

    (Original post by LouisB87)
    People arent really aware of the Lib Dems, as they arent given as much chance to be present in the media as, say, UKIP is (with only 1 MP). So, how can centrists support a party they dont actually know about?
    Yes they have a very low profile so they are not concievably going to hit 25+ in the polls but I think they should be, in my opinion in the mid teens. But im asking why YOU wouldnt vote for them.

    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    I'm a Lib Dem supporter because I am an Orange Booker but as that fraction is nearly non-existent in the party anymore, I wouldn't vote for them. But I'm still a supporter in that I'd wish to see a centrist, pro-EU, pro-free-market liberal party.
    Yes the orange book is the distant past now but what policies would say are significantly different from those laid out? To me I'd say (since Tim's move to the centre) they are pretty much the same.

    I'd say the third way maxim still holds: the market where possible; the state where necessary. A good indication of where are party stands with this is the mad idea of nationalizing the trains.


    Great discussion so far!
    • Community Assistant
    • Clearing and Applications Advisor
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Because voting Lib Dem ultimately helps the Tories. I made the mistake of voting for them in 2010 and in 2015, the centre-left vote was split and I got a Conservative MP/Government for my troubles. I would only ever vote Lib Dem again if there was an electoral pact with Labour not to stand in the same seat.

    (Original post by jamestg)
    If they refused to go into a coalition, another GE would have been called. That GE would have brought a period of instability, possible uncertainty and deeper economics chaos. Clegg (and Cameron) both wanted to avoid that, and Clegg acted on behalf of the country -not his party.
    Rubbish. The Tories would have formed a minority government and negotiated each piece of legislation with Labour/the Lib Dems to get it through. That would have been better for the country than the awful coalition.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Should Spain allow Catalonia to declare independence?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.