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The two Phillip Hammonds Watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    *
    *In all seriousness, apart from the EU what is it that turned you so against Cameron and Osborne? You genuinely seemed quite happy with them this time last year.*

    Has your ideology shifted?*
    Cameron is a really bad loser?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Phillip Hammond was regarded by the cabinet as the most pro-Europe member.
    He was not 'soft remain', he was full on remain.
    Phillip Hammond has never been a 'Pro Europe member'. He was a reluctant remainer, just like the current Prime Minister.


    (Original post by suky321)
    I don't like the guy. Hypocrite. But I suppose he's towing the party line, when Cameron was PM he backed Cameron in regards to his rhetoric on the EU referendum, now May is PM he is backing her stance.
    Look up 'Collective responsibility'.

    John Prescott was hardly 'New Labour' and yet was the deputy with a 'New Labour' Prime Minister.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    Phillip Hammond has never been a 'Pro Europe member'. He was a reluctant remainer, just like the current Prime Minister.
    Not during the referendum build up.
    Look at the quote in the OP. That doesn't sound like a 'reluctant remainer'.*
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Not during the referendum build up.
    Look at the quote in the OP. That doesn't sound like a 'reluctant remainer'.*
    Politicians say one thing one minute, another the next, big news...
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    Politicians say one thing one minute, another the next, big news...
    Exactly. That's my exact point.

    He was a huge remainer arguing that we were all doomed irreversibly if we left the EU. Now he's arguing it's all gonna be great.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Exactly. That's my exact point.

    He was a huge remainer arguing that we were all doomed irreversibly if we left the EU. Now he's arguing it's all gonna be great.
    Before the referendum he was a Eurospectic, he changed his mind after the renegotiation, which let's be honest were hardly any different to before the renegotiation.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    Before the referendum he was a Eurospectic, he changed his mind after the renegotiation, which let's be honest were hardly any different to before the renegotiation.
    You can be a Eurosceptic and still support staying in.
    All the messages from Hammond were incredibly pro-EU and anti Brexit in the build up.

    Someone who changes their mind so easily hardly fills us with confidence.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    (1,) Phillip Hammond before the EU referendum:

    "Hard-headed analysis shows that every alternative to remaining in a reformed EU would leave Britain weaker, less safe and worse off. Working people would pay the price with fewer jobs and rising prices… British businesses would be squeezed out of traditional markets… [Brexit would mean we] sacrifice jobs and growth… while our competitors forge ahead…”

    (2,) Phillip Hammond today

    “The British people did not vote on June 23 to become poorer or less secure… No one should be in any doubt that we have the skills, the ingenuity and the determination to make a success of Brexit... We ARE going to make a success of it… Our vibrant, successful economy will mean that when future generations look back on our decision in 2016 they will see not the end of an era but the beginning of a new age… A bigger, better, greater Britain…”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...s-he-think-we/
    Leaving aside the Tories are duplicitous weasels, you do have to put a bold face on difficult situations that haven't worked out as you hoped.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)

    Someone who changes their mind so easily hardly fills us with confidence.
    Same can be said of any politician, Andy Burnham for instance now jumping into bed with Corbyn when he also was a signed up Blairite and Brownite.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    Same can be said of any politician, Andy Burnham for instance now jumping into bed with Corbyn when he also was a signed up Blairite and Brownite.
    There's a difference. Burnham has made it clear he does not share Corbyn's view but chose to serve out of loyalty to the party. His ideological position remained the same.

    Hammond however has gone from telling us that Brexit meant we were doomed forever to Brexit being the best thing that ever happened to us.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    There's a difference. Burnham has made it clear he does not share Corbyn's view but chose to serve out of loyalty to the party. His ideological position remained the same.

    Hammond however has gone from telling us that Brexit meant we were doomed forever to Brexit being the best thing that ever happened to us.
    If his ideologies were the same he would refuse to serve, no, more like he's a megalomaniac like most people who serve in [shadow] cabinets and nicely bridges the few month gap before he becomes Mayor of Manchester, if the Labour party give the shadow cabinet extra money, whether it be in the form of straight up cash or expenses he's also got that little perk for a few months too.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If his ideologies were the same he would refuse to serve, no, more like he's a megalomaniac like most people who serve in [shadow] cabinets and nicely bridges the few month gap before he becomes Mayor of Manchester, if the Labour party give the shadow cabinet extra money, whether it be in the form of straight up cash or expenses he's also got that little perk for a few months too.
    Burnham was never a pure Blairite, nor was he a Corbynite. He's a social democrat really, about where Miliband was meaning he can get on with both the right and left of the party.

    Labour shadow cabinet members get no more money, apart from of course, the leader. It's why it's so unappealing, you have far more work to do for no extra gain.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't believe that Theresa May supported remain at all.

    She was about as keen as a remainer as Corbyn.
    I actually think Theresa May was authentic on this.

    She was a pragmatic remainer rather than one that banged on about ending conflict in Europe and Britain's place in the world and blah blah.

    This was the only real contribution she made during the referendum debate: one big speech where she set out all her arguments: http://www.conservativehome.com/parl...full-text.html

    It was basically based on a pragmatic set of reasons where she felt being part of the EU gave the UK advantages in terms of security co-operation and action against crime but she also widens outside her Home Secretary brief to discuss the wider issues.

    I am not particularly a Theresa May fan but I do think she is thoughtful and bases her judgements on her own considered analysis rather than jumping to positions for reasons of political posturing.

    I think she was sincere that she thought at the time it would be better on balance to remain but she wasn't wedded to the EU like Cameron/Osborne/Nicky Morgan/Anna Soubry etc are. She won't have shed any tears over it which is why she'll have been like....ok the vote was to leave, well I can live with that, lets deliver it.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    I actually think Theresa May was authentic on this.
    I am afraid I do not agree.

    According to the Telegraph this is what she is going to say tomorrow:-

    They find their patriotism distasteful, their concerns about immigration parochial, their views about crime illiberal, their attachment to their job security inconvenient. They find the fact that more than seventeen million people voted to leave the European Union simply bewildering.
    If you compare that with the speech you quoted from a few months before there is no comparison.

    I think Heath was right to face down down the Powellites; Thatcher was right to face down the Scargillites and my patriotism is that of cricket and old maids cycling to church, not some thug kicking 7 bells out of a rival supporter before a football match in the name of Ingerlund.

    I backed May to be the Tory leader long before the Brexit vote but I am not very sure she is a Conservative now at all.


    Apparently May will say later:-

    A change has got to come. It’s time to remember the good that government can do. Time for a new approach that says while government does not have all the answers, government can and should be a force for good; that the state exists to provide what individual people, communities and markets cannot; and that we should employ the power of government for the good of the people.
    I am afraid I am with Margaret Thatcher:-

    There are significant differences between the American and European version of capitalism. The American traditiionally emphasizes the need for limited government, light regulations, low taxes and maximum labour-market flexibility. Its success has been shown above all in the ability to create new jobs, in which it is consistently more successful than Europe.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I am afraid I do not agree.

    According to the Telegraph this is what she is going to say tomorrow:-



    If you compare that with the speech you quoted from a few months before there is no comparison.

    I think Heath was right to face down down the Powellites; Thatcher was right to face down the Scargillites and my patriotism is that of cricket and old maids cycling to church, not some thug kicking 7 bells out of a rival supporter before a football match in the name of Ingerlund.

    I backed May to be the Tory leader long before the Brexit vote but I am not very sure she is a Conservative now at all.


    Apparently May will say later:-



    I am afraid I am with Margaret Thatcher:-
    As Jonathon Freedland stated, May's speech today could have been co-written by Ed Miliband and the Daily Mail.
 
 
 
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