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Homeopathy

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    (Original post by Gofre)
    I would argue that withholding proven treatments in favour of known unproven/disproven treatments would constitute as a form of cruelty, not on the same grade as actively abusing but it's still causing harm as a direct result of the person's actions as a consequence of leaving them untreated.



    They pretty much can;



    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/homeopa...aspx#when-used
    The NHS would not withhold proven treatment, as long as its use is economical. Homeopathy, I'm sure, will never be advised. However, some people will inevitably call for it. And when they do, the NHS has a register of practitioners, that it seems they approve of. Effectively, without producing this register, wouldn't homeopathy care been ever more unregulated and dangerous? Spending money, an insignificant amount of its budget, to improve safety is only reasonable. I understand some practitioners don't have to seek NHS accreditation, but amongst the ones that do, at least some standard is kept up for patients' safety.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    it is powerful ju-ju
    Surely describing it as a good ho-ho would be more accurate?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Surely describing it as a good ho-ho would be more accurate?
    it has these advantages:

    i) no side-effects

    ii) people cannot develop resistance to it

    iii) the ingredients are inexpensive *
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    (Original post by G.name)
    The NHS would not withhold proven treatment, as long as its use is economical. Homeopathy, I'm sure, will never be advised. However, some people will inevitably call for it. And when they do, the NHS has a register of practitioners, that it seems they approve of.
    Oh I more meant people actively choosing homeopathy for their pets/children, not the NHS by providing it :yep:
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    Oh I more meant people actively choosing homeopathy for their pets/children, not the NHS by providing it :yep:
    Lol, sorry about that- probably my fault. I know nothing about its use in pets. So I'm totally the wrong person to have discussion w/ about that.
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    (Original post by Mvine001)
    I have had homeopathy done for 15 years. It has stopped my asthma, flu, it's sorted out my emotions about things and more. This is more than proof. It's evidence. I know what I'm talking about. Don't try and say that I'm making this up, because I'm not.
    You are a sample size of one, talking about your own subjectively diagnosed and treated problems. I doubt you're making it up, but it doesn't give homeopathy more credence than any other form of placebo.
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    You are a sample size of one, talking about your own subjectively diagnosed and treated problems. I doubt you're making it up, but it doesn't give homeopathy more credence than any other form of placebo.
    And you would know, eh?
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    (Original post by the bear)
    i) no side-effects
    It's a gateway to more dangerous quackery like anti-vaxers.
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    (Original post by Mvine001)
    I have had homeopathy done for 15 years. It has stopped my asthma, flu, it's sorted out my emotions about things and more. This is more than proof. It's evidence. I know what I'm talking about. Don't try and say that I'm making this up, because I'm not.
    You have no control variable whatsoever, so that is not evidence at all. It's an anecdote.

    I presume you also went outside and walked at some point over the last 15 years, and you don't attribute being outside and walking to 'curing' your illnesses.

    Being outside and walking does you a LOT more good than homeopathy ever can.
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    (Original post by Mvine001)
    And you would know, eh?
    I have no way of knowing if homeopathy cured your ailments, and neither do you. You did a lot of things over the course of time when you also took homeopathy, and there was no alternate version of you who didn't take homeopathy.
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    The spending is small, about 0.004% apparently: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37557083

    (Original post by dingleberry jam)
    Not sure it is, some placebos work better than others, injections are better than sugar cubes and we can do it cheaper than homeopathy.
    The placebo justification is interesting. Placebos seem to work only if the patient (and doctor?) believe it will. But doctors cannot ethically give treatments they know will not work (although some surveys reveal that GPs knowingly prescribe bogus treatments just to stop them coming back).

    So the only solution might be for doctors who believe in homeopathy to give it to patients who believe, who then get better, but only because of the placebo effect! Circular reasoning I know but you could argue it's an ethical use. Of course, if it prevents the use of real treatments that work this undoes any good the placebo effect might account for.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    The spending is small, about 0.004% apparently: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37557083
    So what? We're depriving patients of treatments and drugs every day, that
    0.004% would be better spent on them.

    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    The placebo justification is interesting. Placebos seem to work only if the patient (and doctor?) believe it will.
    Strangely they work even when the patient knows they are getting a placebo
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/07July/P...a-placebo.aspx
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Placebos seem to work only if the patient (and doctor?) believe it will.
    Not so, apparently. Read these:

    Harvard:
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/p...o-201607079926

    Colorado Boulder & Maryland:
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/07July/P...a-placebo.aspx

    and, even earlier:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/p...know-10-12-23/
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    (Original post by dingleberry jam)
    So what? We're depriving patients of treatments and drugs every day, that
    0.004% would be better spent on them.
    I'm not making a judgement, just putting some context around the money spent.

    Strangely they work even when the patient knows they are getting a placebo
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/07July/P...a-placebo.aspx
    Yeah that study is cool. But lots of others show that expectancy is important, and that you can even reverse the effects by changing expectancy!

    But to be honest, there's a lot we don't know about how placebo and nocebo effects work.
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    I would argue that withholding proven treatments in favour of known unproven/disproven treatments would constitute as a form of cruelty, not on the same grade as actively abusing but it's still causing harm as a direct result of the person's actions as a consequence of leaving them untreated.



    They pretty much can;



    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/homeopa...aspx#when-used
    I couldn't agree with this more. It's exactly my opinion.
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    (Original post by Mvine001)
    Do you have proof
    Homeopathy is pretty much giving people water you do realise that right?


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    (Original post by Failingstudent98)
    Homeopathy is pretty much giving people water you do realise that right?


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    Fun fact: A "low potency" dilution, referred to in homeopathy as 6C and typically used as an introductory dosage, contains the original active ingredient on a ratio of one part per trillion. That means the active ingredient actually exists at lower concentrations than the impurities found in uk tap water do.
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    Fun fact: A "low potency" dilution, referred to in homeopathy as 6C and typically used as an introductory dosage, contains the original active ingredient on a ratio of one part per trillion. That means the active ingredient actually exists at lower concentrations than the impurities found in uk tap water do.
    Yer I read that too, I can't imagine how small a 30C dilution is


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    The basic answer is that it has some powerful friends - it's one of the things Prince Charles is a fan of and at least one Tory minister.

    (Original post by sek510i)
    It seems to be an expensive placebo effect. The bits of homeopathy that did turn out to have an effect beyond that became recognised medicine, like asprin.
    Nope, that's herbalism.

    The story of homoeopathy: someone decides that if you give someone something that mimics their symptoms, it will cure them. So you give some poison that gives people a fever and it will cure fevers. Ooops, no, it doesn't. Still the basic idea must be right, so let's try with a smaller dose of poison. Astonishingly, if you poison people less, fewer of them will get even sicker. Instead of going 'I was mad to try and poison people in the first place', he goes 'Ah ha! The dilution magically makes my theory right! The less I poison people, the better the cure works' and invents homoeopathy.

    Whatever you do - including nothing - a problem gets better, gets worse, or stays the same. Homoeopaths do some hand-holding, give nothing, look at the 'gets better' ones and claim those as successes...
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    Homeopathy has worked for me. It's very well diluted poison mixed with herbs. You have your opinions, and I have mine. In my opinion, it works.
 
 
 
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