M409 – LGBTQ+ Motion 2016

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Once again just using plain old statistics is misleading, to reach the top jobs you have to work almost non stop and statistics show women don't do that and that is because they tend to be happier not doing that, if you work part time which has been showed that women tend to prefer you have pretty much no chance of reaching the top male or female.

    Your right we should just make sure that children do not get to do things they prefer we must make sure they all have the same preferences etc so when they are adults we can ensure that the numbers everywhere are 50/50, you are approaching it from the other side of the spectrum and saying we need to ignore these differences because you do not like the results of them.
    Putting the differences solely down to differences in preferences is just silly. Nobody's saying we should equalise preferences, but women, as a matter of fact, don't have equal opportunities.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Putting the differences solely down to differences in preferences is just silly. Nobody's saying we should equalise preferences, but women, as a matter of fact, don't have equal opportunities.
    Yes they do just because they dont take the opportunities offered to them as often does not mean that the opportunity didnt exist.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Yes they do just because they dont take the opportunities offered to them as often does not mean that the opportunity didnt exist.
    Except for the statistical data suggesting the opportunities don't exist. The onus is on you to prove that the opportunities are equal.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Except for the statistical data suggesting the opportunities don't exist. The onus is on you to prove that the opportunities are equal.
    The data doesn't show opportunities don't exist, what it shows is that women aren't in top jobs that is not the same thing.

    When women work non stop towards getting to the top then they can get to the top the data shows this, it is also shown women tend to work part time to make themselves happier so they are lacking the experience needed to reach the top and they only have themselves to blame for their decision to work part time.
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    Aye.

    I've seen with my own experience, especially my generation, how prejudice they are to LGBTQ+. This is quite disconcerting to me. And I don't think legalising same-sex marriage is enough. I think to reduce the hate crimes, we need to implement this into our education system, under sex education, teaching kids that people are going to be different and be attracted to different people - therefore their sexuality should be respected and not hated.

    Just like how education teaches us to respect people of different race we should respect people of different sexualities.
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    No. The government should be reintroducing Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1989 to prevent the corruption of our youth's minds with propaganda advocating for a denial of traditional relationships.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Aye.

    I've seen with my own experience, especially my generation, how prejudice they are to LGBTQ+. This is quite disconcerting to me. And I don't think legalising same-sex marriage is enough. I think to reduce the hate crimes, we need to implement this into our education system, under sex education, teaching kids that people are going to be different and be attracted to different people - therefore their sexuality should be respected and not hated.

    Just like how education teaches us to respect people of different race we should respect people of different sexualities.
    And we should respect other people's opinions on LGBT people
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    And we should respect other people's opinions on LGBT people
    Those opinions should not be respected if it's derogatory or hateful. There is no justification for being prejudice or discriminatory towards LGBTQ+ people.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Those opinions should not be respected if it's derogatory or hateful. There is no justification for being prejudice or discriminatory towards LGBTQ+ people.
    Hear, hear. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is fundamentally wrong when people abuse others for not sharing their beliefs, both verbally and physically.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Those opinions should not be respected if it's derogatory or hateful. There is no justification for being prejudice or discriminatory towards LGBTQ+ people.
    People have the right to be wrong and people have the right to believe what they like it seems the only type of diversity disliked is the diversity of opinions.

    I don't agree with what these people think of LGBT people but I will stand up for people thinking these things
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    Hear, hear. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is fundamentally wrong when people abuse others for not sharing their beliefs, both verbally and physically.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course. But if it's not logical then why should it be respected? Why should for example Trump's racist comments be respected when they have no logic behind it?

    There are opinions that are respected, because they have valid reason behind it, then there's opinions that cannot be respected because they have no reason behind it.

    Simply hating gay people "because they are gay" is an example of an opinion that has no reason behind it.

    But I agree with you. Being hateful towards people of a certain sexuality is not acceptable.
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    Hear, hear. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is fundamentally wrong when people abuse others for not sharing their beliefs, both verbally and physically.
    Exactly people are allowed their own opinions its actions that should be punished so maybe we should not encourage schools to start "educating" that it is ok because the truth is it is a personal choice and even if it's wrong we do not teach against religion which is also wrong but a personal choice.

    If someone proposed a motion about teaching how Islam is wrong in school you would criticise it but you are happy criticising other beliefs you.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    People have the right to be wrong and people have the right to believe what they like it seems the only type of diversity disliked is the diversity of opinions.

    I don't agree with what these people think of LGBT people but I will stand up for people thinking these things
    Yes but also people have a right to not live in fear that they will be getting hateful comments about their sexuality all the time. People have a right to be attracted to anyone they want. People have a right to express their sexuality without getting mowed down.

    They may have rights because of freedom of speech, but there's terms and conditions. There's limits. I like free thought but the thing is some opinions are quite extreme and should not be respected. You shouldn't say something hateful towards LGBTQ+ people and use freedom of speech to cover your back... that's not how freedom of speech should be used.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course. But if it's not logical then why should it be respected? Why should for example Trump's racist comments be respected when they have no logic behind it?

    There are opinions that are respected, because they have valid reason behind it, then there's opinions that cannot be respected because they have no reason behind it.

    Simply hating gay people "because they are gay" is an example of an opinion that has no reason behind it.

    But I agree with you. Being hateful towards people of a certain sexuality is not acceptable.
    Why should religion be respected then?

    You have to be consistent and stand up for beliefs you do not agree with as well as what you do.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Yes but also people have a right to not live in fear that they will be getting hateful comments about their sexuality all the time. People have a right to be attracted to anyone they want. People have a right to express their sexuality without getting mowed down.

    They may have rights because of freedom of speech, but there's terms and conditions. There's limits. I like free thought but the thing is some opinions are quite extreme and should not be respected. You shouldn't say something hateful towards LGBTQ+ people and use freedom of speech to cover your back... that's not how freedom of speech should be used.
    There are laws against it already those are there to protect people, they do have that right just like the people who this would target have the right to their opinions, i never said they didn't.

    The only thing freedom of speech should not protect is incitement, while I agree you shouldn't say something hateful that is more of a common decency things than a legal thing.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Exactly people are allowed their own opinions its actions that should be punished so maybe we should not encourage schools to start "educating" that it is ok because the truth is it is a personal choice and even if it's wrong we do not teach against religion which is also wrong but a personal choice.

    If someone proposed a motion about teaching how Islam is wrong in school you would criticise it but you are happy criticising other beliefs you.
    This is where you're definitely wrong.

    Sexuality is not a choice. Who you are attracted to is something biological/psychological. What religion you believe in cannot be explained biologically unlike sexuality - therefore religion must be a choice.

    Yes, I am happy to criticise your belief that sexuality is a choice because your opinion is invalid therefore I must prove it wrong. The difference between my opinion, that sexuality is not a choice, and your opinion, that sexuality is a choice - is that one is backed up by facts and one isn't.

    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Why should religion be respected then?
    Because if someone wants to believes there is a God and they want to follow teachings from Christianity then let them. We should always respect religion but the difference is you can be critical of it. Being critical in a way that isn't derogatory and is backed up by facts is acceptable. There's a fine line with being critical provided you use facts and being critical but in a derogatory and discriminatory way.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Exactly people are allowed their own opinions its actions that should be punished so maybe we should not encourage schools to start "educating" that it is ok because the truth is it is a personal choice and even if it's wrong we do not teach against religion which is also wrong but a personal choice.

    If someone proposed a motion about teaching how Islam is wrong in school you would criticise it but you are happy criticising other beliefs you.
    Yes, but this motion is directly tackling the problem of discrimination towards LBGT people without waiting for decades for a change in education to kick in.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    You're both adopting an assumption that the 'wage gap' is only relevant insofar as it sees people being paid different amounts for the same job - and I agree, that has been shown to no longer exist, but it hasn't been 'debunked' because nobody ever claimed there was a gap using that interpretation. However, there still exist undeniably problematic social stigmas and expectations which see women being significantly more likely than men to work part-time (and part-time work pays less per hour than full time work of the same ability), and significantly less likely to push for promotion. Thus, claiming the problem of the 'wage gap' has been solved is myopic.
    We seem to be on the same page here, so I trust you disgaree with this part of the motion?

    "The Williams Institute found that people on the LGBTQ+ spectrum can earn up to 32% less in wages than their heterosexual counterparts. This is a staggering statistic and one which must be rectified. People must be paid based on the job, their skills and their work rate, and it is disturbing that some businesses also base salaries on what sexual orientation someone is - the Government needs to ensure this never happens."

    Clearly the reason for this discrepancy is the choices of individual employees, and not some institutionalised system in which gay people are paid less. The motion is being very deceitful here.

    I would go further and suggest that this discrepancy is no bad thing as it is based on individual choices, but that is a debate for another time.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    This is where you're definitely wrong.

    Sexuality is not a choice. Who you are attracted to is something biological/psychological. What religion you believe in cannot be explained biologically unlike sexuality - therefore religion must be a choice.

    Yes, I am happy to criticise your belief that sexuality is a choice because your opinion is invalid therefore I must prove it wrong. The difference between my opinion, that sexuality is not a choice, and your opinion, that sexuality is a choice - is that one is backed up by facts and one isn't.



    Because if someone wants to believes there is a God and they want to follow teachings from Christianity then let them. We should always respect religion but the difference is you can be critical of it. Being critical in a way that isn't derogatory and is backed up by facts is acceptable. There's a fine line with being critical provided you use facts and being critical but in a derogatory and discriminatory way.
    I was meaning the people who dislike LGBT people have a choice sorry if I was unclear about that.

    Ok so maybe we should teach in schools every way in which religious texts are wrong to educate people on how these texts are completely wrong to stop them from believing what they believe.
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    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    No. The government should be reintroducing Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1989 to prevent the corruption of our youth's minds with propaganda advocating for a denial of traditional relationships.
    I hear the weather's lovely in Russia right now.
 
 
 
Updated: October 18, 2016
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