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Brexit is a 'successs' watch

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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    oooh and let me guess: the BBC doesn't count. all because I said "paper". okay, little tike - you win!



    oh my ****ing word. such a huge world of difference that you had to discern



    -_-
    so whatever parliament does is legitimate in a two party system then by this logic - forget about the incentives that first past the post produces - forget about all of that - whatever choices the voters cast in elections are their sincere and purest choices possible



    ...because those "pro EU" parties were *the* parties.

    it's like you're playing on easy mode here and I'm playing this on hard - make an effort please. this is just a shame because I'm actually giving you so much leeway but you're throwing these tiny little points at me that are only being used because they're difficult to refute in the way you're expecting - i.e. you want me to show you that voters would have voted against labour and the tories if they could have? that would require so many different variables and controls - a different electoral system being tested, for instance, and imagining what kind of parties would even be incentivised to exist in such a condition

    also, of course UKIP didn't get any seats - they aren't a regionally strong political party *anywhere* - their support is national! they got more votes than the SNP yet 1/50~ of their seat share! do you even understand FPTP?



    what politician in 1975 even implied that the EEC would get bigger? :| did the UK citizens in 1975 want european federalism in your opinion?



    I don't want a short story - I want a competent explanation of your mystifying opinion actually!
    The BBC is certainly amongst the more neutral media organisations but is still subject to bias - indeed its biased towards being unbiased! (Eg giving equal weight to different viewed regardless of how credible one is)



    It's quite a big one actually. It could be the difference between us staying or remaining in the single market and crucially gives brexit a chance.



    We had a referendum on alternative voting in 2011- FPTP won by 67% stop meaning snd accept its democratic mandate! (Coincidentally the No2AV campaign was run by the people who ran Vote Leave)

    Heath all the way to Blair were actually pretty open about expansion.

    Did the UK population want eu federalism in 1975? No, but it wasn't on offer then it developed. People then were open to legalised homosexuality but would have been against gay marriage even though it's the logical development.


    Factors

    Most of the reasons for the EU to begin with still hold up- additionally the stepping back of the US in world affairs and the slow death of NATO will also play a part. If/ when a federal EU emerges on the continent it's inevitably going to be sucked in to such a degree that's it's going to be unmanageable to govern separately- the fact that young people in the U.K. Generally voted to remain is also worth considering.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The BBC has bias.
    let me guess: right wing bias?
    i.e. they love donald trump right now
    yeess
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    The BBC is certainly amongst the more neutral media organisations but is still subject to bias - indeed its biased towards being unbiased! (Eg giving equal weight to different viewed regardless of how credible one is)
    that's not bias, that's literally the definition of bias - being biased towards being biased is "unbiased".

    It's quite a big one actually. It could be the difference between us staying or remaining in the single market and crucially gives brexit a chance.
    nah, it is the same. remainers want to rejoin and brexiteers want to stay out.

    We had a referendum on alternative voting in 2011- FPTP won by 67% stop meaning snd accept its democratic mandate! (Coincidentally the No2AV campaign was run by the people who ran Vote Leave)
    I don't care - I actually wanted AV (even though it's purely a second worst) *and* brexit.

    Heath all the way to Blair were actually pretty open about expansion.
    no they really weren't. if they were, it wasn't public, or intentionally public

    Did the UK population want eu federalism in 1975? No, but it wasn't on offer then it developed. People then were open to legalised homosexuality but would have been against gay marriage even though it's the logical development.
    "then it developed" = "then the people were more used to that stuff by then"
    gay marriage developed not because politicians buttered them up into it via gradual developments - in the UK, and all over the west, people started to understand that it should never have been criminal in the first place because it's not harming anybody and people can't help being gay. the EU is "harming people" in the sense that it is now taking away more and more of their ability to scrutinise those that rule them. and even if EU federalism *was* on offer, you would be completely insane to think they'd have wanted it back then when they don't even want it now - in fact, all those who were arguing for remain were wanting to reform it AWAY from federality!

    Factors
    "factors"? what is this even in response to? please make an effort - I'm making an effort, please do the same. this just comes off as "I'm going to confuse you instead of respond because that's all I can do to combat your arguments against mine"

    Most of the reasons for the EU to begin with still hold up- additionally the stepping back of the US in world affairs and the slow death of NATO will also play a part.
    so you're saying that individual nations cannot act in concert to...police the world? I mean, if germany, a huge player in the EU today, wanted to contribute to that too, why doesn't it have nukes? I'm not saying nukes are the be all end all, but they are obviously a huge deterrent against other nuclear powers...like russia, for instance

    If/ when a federal EU emerges on the continent it's inevitably going to be sucked in to such a degree that's it's going to be unmanageable to govern separately- the fact that young people in the U.K. Generally voted to remain is also worth considering.
    ...and that's when the EU will fail, if it will "be unmanageable to govern" without us. :| and if by your logic people become more indoctrinated to status quos (i.e. a developing EU project), surely they'd be indoctrinated to being outside ofthe EU after a while simply because this will become a new status quo?
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    that's not bias, that's literally the definition of bias - being biased towards being biased is "unbiased".
    ?

    nah, it is the same. remainers want to rejoin and brexiteers want to stay out.
    We haven't left yet as in trigger article 50 some remainders wantc to stop that from happening. I'm not one of them.


    I don't care - I actually wanted AV (even though it's purely a second worst) *and* brexit.
    Well I'm glad you don't care- it would be ridiculous to change your mind just because a certain percentage more people disagree (for a whole host of differing readons). Maybe you can sympathise with the Remoaners now

    no they really weren't. if they were, it wasn't public, or intentionally public
    Do Front covers on The Times count?

    "then it developed" = "then the people were more used to that stuff by then"
    gay marriage developed not because politicians buttered them up into it via gradual developments - in the UK, and all over the west, people started to understand that it should never have been criminal in the first place because it's not harming anybody and people can't help being gay. the EU is "harming people" in the sense that it is now taking away more and more of their ability to scrutinise those that rule them. and even if EU federalism *was* on offer, you would be completely insane to think they'd have wanted it back then when they don't even want it now - in fact, all those who were arguing for remain were wanting to reform it AWAY from federality!
    How is that harming them? And how will brexit change this?

    You could also convincingly argue from a traditionalist perspective that's homosexuality is harming society and the function of the family.

    Sure they were against it now- because if special circumstances outside of the EU's control as I have put forward.


    "factors"? what is this even in response to? please make an effort - I'm making an effort, please do the same. this just comes off as "I'm going to confuse you instead of respond because that's all I can do to combat your arguments against mine
    Maybe you're just too easily confused...

    so you're saying that individual nations cannot act in concert to...police the world? I mean, if germany, a huge player in the EU today, wanted to contribute to that too, why doesn't it have nukes? I'm not saying nukes are the be all end all, but they are obviously a huge deterrent against other nuclear powers...like russia, for instance
    Obviously, a USE is going to end more powerful than any individual European state.



    ...and that's when the EU will fail, if it will "be unmanageable to govern" without us. :| and if by your logic people become more indoctrinated to status quos (i.e. a developing EU project), surely they'd be indoctrinated to being outside ofthe EU after a while simply because this will become a new status quo?
    Nobody's being indoctrinated (except perhaps for the belief in democracy and HR) what is changeing are people's circumstances, environments and attitudes and thus young people are according to yougov more relaxed on certain issues than their grandparents.

    I should add- I'm not arguing that 'progress' is inevitable or even that s USE is even inevitable - but I do think these 'factors' play a part in our future.
 
 
 
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