Are the days of 'centre ground' politics over for good? Watch

username878267
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#21
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#21
(Original post by sahil19)
it annoys me because brexit and trump aren't the answer..
also the whole 'liberal elite' thing is a total myth
But the status quo doesn't work for a lot of people and we've not been able to offer them alternative. Clinton stood on a continuity platform. If people weren't happy with things as they are why would they want them to continue?

At least with uncertainty there's a chance things could improve,
Trump has no answers but he tapped into an anger that many on the centre left have simply ignored.
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username878267
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#22
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For all the faults of Corbyn (and there are many) at least he says what he thinks. He gives you a straight answers rather than running everything through a PR filter.

So few politicians do that.
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Betelgeuse-
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(Original post by Bornblue)
For all the faults of Corbyn (and there are many) at least he says what he thinks. He gives you a straight answers rather than running everything through a PR filter.

So few politicians do that.
Yea i like the cut of his jib tbh. The rest of them, not so much
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username878267
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(Original post by Betelgeuse-)
Yea i like the cut of his jib tbh. The rest of them, not so much
Thornberry and Diane Abbot are two of my least favourite politicians.
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sahil19
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As before mentioned I look back on the days of New Labour with SUCH fondness. However I now worry they'll never be another centre/centre left government in power again.
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niteninja1
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(Original post by Lime-man)
You'll find that a universal healthcare system is much more efficient than a private one. The UK's healthcare system is probably one of the most centrist in that we still have private healthcare available to those who want or can afford it.

Posted from TSR Mobile
I agree my argument on a mixed system is obama care where anyone who earns over a certain amount getting full private insurance only
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Iknowbest
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#27
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There are certainly many racists in the world as well as many people who would give anything for all the human race to live together in harmony! The reason for this behaviour is due to many things! it would take too long to explain what makes a person feel the way they do about another person or group.

The most obvious reason for this behaviour are, the influences throughout a persons life.

Now the real problem, is that many organisations are happy to influence people into feeling one way or another.. including the most powerful the main stream media.. who are controlled economically and politically by certain groups. We also have alternative media that is also controlled by certain groups and also social media! These media are a lot more in control of many people!

We have the many people who vote because they belong to a group of people who could benefit from voting for a particular party... in a way that benefits them or a group for either financial reasons or religious reasons that I will call Agenda Voting. I find this happens locally in my town with Muslims and it benefits them and expands their political influence to vote Labour.. due to the obvious! This is not a racist comment, it is just how this works and many mosques are approved by our Labour run Council.. whom possibly the same planning consent would not be allowed with other political party's in power. Me personally, I don't mind it at all.. I feel the Muslim community are amazing and the way they really embrace their religion and how it makes them happy is nice to see. Other people however, do not see it this way!

The reason I mentioned this was to show how politics and religion are very much hand in hand.. and how this can separate the left from the right. It is actually the lefties that help to cause the issues many in the right complain about.. right or wrongly so!
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SaucissonSecCy
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#28
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Quite a lot on the Sanders left are rightfully angry. For years they have been lectured by 'moderates' about how the left needs to compromise (abandon) its principles and move to the centre to be 'electable'.

Well they did that with Hilary Clinton. The definition of a 'centre ground' politician and she lost to someone who was anything but centrist. Sanders unlike Clinton was deeply popular and had a warmth and likeability to him and really connected with voters. He was an ordinary person, not a corporate puppet. It became obvious that working class Americans wanted to take a sledgehammer to the economic and political system that has screwed them over yet the Democrats elected someone who represented everything that those voters hated.

Never assume that the electorate cannot be won over or persuaded by a compelling argument. The result of this election is the fault of the centre-left. The 'Blairties', the 'Clintonites', the 'moderates' who have absolutely refused to challenge the economic system which has caused the working classes so much misery. They've screamed at those on the left like Sanders and arguably Corbyn who actually realised how frustrated the working class were.

People like Owen Jones have been saying for years and years that if the left does not stand up for the working class then the far right will, with devastating effect. That's the sad part. The rise of Trump was so predictable and so avoidable if the left had actually listened to people's concerns.

This short video represents the arrogance and smugness of the centre left:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHkPadFK34o
It is not a principled stance to support this so-called 'centrism'.. it's a sellout and everyone knows what they are like deep down, worse and often more dishonest and unprincipled than the right and bigger enemies to democracy.

There is a pendulum that will always swing, that is voter psychology- the argument about moving over is rooted in the past and Tony Blair, those people are obsessed with that era, whilst claiming all other eras are the past- their delusion is funny, if it wasn't so pernicious and depressing, and so much conventional wisdom

The fact is they won with Blair because if charisma, policies were correlation not causation, and it's a different time anyhow. They have failed to compute.

If Clinton had won, like with Blair, what happens, they get validated in doing the same, and get even smugger and more arrogant, and less accountable. Why should voters be harangued on what sense is, and principle, in these case? Glad they have seen through the sham frankly.

They stitched up Sanders, thought the establishment knew best again, failed to get the problem or even provide representative democracy. So it's good they were not validated in doing this.

There will always be a pendulum so beyond the usual short term arguments, it has to be about who occupies each party and the direction they take- that's what makes the society we live in, not some false pretense, and self serving, meglomaniacal case for having the 'centre/centre left'(or more accurately social and economic liberalism) in for huge stretches Tribalism is damaging in this way, and defunct and has been cynically manipulated for so long.

We are going back to more authentic politics, and even if Trump does make right wing appointments(personally don't think he holds genuine convictions in this direction) the reaction against it and new direction of the democrats causes even more radical yet positive changes next time. Maybe even some diametrically opposed states may decide that it's healthier to go independent and get more democracy who knows.

Of course the one concern is that it would only be a moderate republican or Tory government that would allow the left to reclaim the other party, whilst the right incarnations would just make the old Labour and Democrat visions dig in again as the voice of 'sanity', still looking left in comparison. There are some who get it, but there are some utterly dogmatic, had their vanity offended, obsessed with that era of politics, and I think they are pretty zealous, see nothing wrong with their cases, and are not showing much humility or willingness to shift their ground or see things differently. I think the media taking a hit and maybe responding and their righteousness and sense of omnipotence waning a bit might help, there are already signs of a bit more objectivity and getting tired of the old shtick, and since the party machines seem to have such a symbiotic relationship with them, it may be that they have to change. Also the fact polling has been so risible, with Trump thirty points down, etc, is really going to factor in.

But I'm not sure, these are very different times, and if at the end of these years the public are sick and turned off, the left can be radical, they will have room- provided they are not zealously for mass immigration, and Labour are showing signs of getting this strategy from what I see now.

Interesting times.
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Good bloke
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#29
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(Original post by Drewski)
Politics goes in cycles
Especially Jeremy Corbyn.
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SaucissonSecCy
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#30
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(Original post by sahil19)
As before mentioned I look back on the days of New Labour with SUCH fondness.
These are the folks that mystify me. So glad it's over tbh.
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Good bloke
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#31
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(Original post by Bornblue)
He gives you a straight answers rather than running everything through a PR filter.
The truth is that he physically runs away from reporters with awkward questions to avoid giving answer.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04...m-camera-crew/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...free-vote.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-clear.html
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username878267
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#32
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(Original post by Good bloke)
The truth is that he physically runs away from reporters with awkward questions to avoid giving answer.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04...m-camera-crew/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...free-vote.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-clear.html
People shouldn't be harassed on their doorstep...
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Good bloke
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Bornblue)
People shouldn't be harassed on their doorstep...
Like these people?

http://labourlist.org/2016/01/why-i-...ou-should-too/
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Sorcerer
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#34
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To appeal to the majority you have to go to the centre.
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username878267
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#35
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Canvassing is different to the media sticking a microphone in your face outside your door to try and spin a story out of you.

As someone who's canvassed before I can tell you that if someone asks you to go away, you do so immediately rather than harassing them, unlike journalists.
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Rakas21
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#36
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(Original post by sahil19)
As before mentioned I look back on the days of New Labour with SUCH fondness. However I now worry they'll never be another centre/centre left government in power again.
Define centrism.

I don't think society has suddenly developed a yearning for traditionalism or social conservatism so in that sense i think that it's entirely probable we'll get somebody with May's economic views and a belief in social liberalism.

The problem (and where the left have been slaughtered) is in tying centrism to what the social democrats deem to be progressive which is diversity, pandering to identity politics and generally bashing the native people of the country (especially when white).

It is theoretically possible to have a Blair like character who values the natives, is willing to address fundamental issues and keep Britain British.
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1Trump1Brexit
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not in this country
there are two laws of FPTP: two party rule and the median voter theorem.
there are occasions of bi-polarity, but these are rare and exceptional
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balanced
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#38
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No, it's just that you think this way because the centre changes. The centre is not fixed, it is basically just the 'average' view. Now, the tories are pretty central, although a few years ago they wouldn't have been.
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HandiCapanda
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#39
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Cameron won to be fair so the answer is that the center can still win definitely.

I think the more important question though is whether these centrists can get away with not tackling some of the big issues like wage growth.
By refusing to change/deal with the none centrists policies implemented by previous governments (and the effects such policies have had) is a centrist government really centrist ?

People seem to get caught up on placing parties on the political spectrum, if our conservative government seeks to conserve far left social policies like the EU or mass immigration or freedom of movement etc., as is the case, then calling them conservative really is misleading.

If anything UKIP is probably a centralist party, more so than any other that I am aware of currently, the conservatives are center left, and Labour are basically communist in everything but name. The mislabeling of Labour as center left is the only reason they have held on to the few voters they currently have.
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username878267
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#40
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Define centrism.

I don't think society has suddenly developed a yearning for traditionalism or social conservatism so in that sense i think that it's entirely probable we'll get somebody with May's economic views and a belief in social liberalism.

The problem (and where the left have been slaughtered) is in tying centrism to what the social democrats deem to be progressive which is diversity, pandering to identity politics and generally bashing the native people of the country (especially when white).

It is theoretically possible to have a Blair like character who values the natives, is willing to address fundamental issues and keep Britain British.
I think people are getting confused between centrism as a political ideology and centrism as the median point of current public opinion.
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