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Should women earn as much as men?
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Bornstubborn
I think it is clear to all logical minds that men pursue education that will lead to more profitable careers, they are willing to work in dangerous environments, they will work more hours, travel further and they will not be taking 9 months off everytime they feel broody.
It's fair that men earn more money because they do more work, but what is not fair is that women can't work as many hours or travel because they have to be the ones responsible for the children. Why can't the men work part-time?
I think it's fine that men are earning more if they are doing more work, but I find it really unfair that women are expected to be the ones that have to be the primary carers for the children, so they don't have the opportunity to earn as much as men.
Yes, men probably are more willing to work in dangerous environments, but most of those jobs are not the very highly paid anyway, so it doesn't really affect this issue.
Also, it's not really fair to discriminate against women because they have to take maternity leave. I really doubt many women look forward to the pain of childbirth. And men want kids too - it's just that women have to push it out!
Men are encouraged to do more profitable subjects like politics and science, where as girls are always socialised into subjects like health and social care etc. It's not a coincidence that 82% of nurses are female!!
I totally agree with what you have said about women should not earn as much as men for doing less work, but women are not given the same opportunities as men and that is not fair. Gender stereo-types need to be broken down.
*feminist rant over*
i found the recent changes to the wimbledon prize money very interesting but predicatable. anyone agree with it?
as a white male i'm now very familiar with inequality in the workplace. while i never disclose my race on any application form, its difficult to hide my sex.
as a white male i'm now very familiar with inequality in the workplace. while i never disclose my race on any application form, its difficult to hide my sex.
shorty.loves.angels
I understand this but what if some women did exactly the same as men, same education same career etc... then she deserves equal pay right? and those who do less/have less education deserve less...?
well they dont so you cant really say that. If they did then yes but its not a practical situation.
Solid_Snake_100
well they dont so you cant really say that. If they did then yes but its not a practical situation.
Huh? Surely somewhere in the world there is a woman who has more qualifications than a man and works harder than a man...? EG, I want to be a pathologist. If I had exactly the same qual's as a man etc, and worked just as hard as a man, surely I would be entitled to the same pay?
shorty.loves.angels
Huh? Surely somewhere in the world there is a woman who has more qualifications than a man and works harder than a man...? EG, I want to be a pathologist. If I had exactly the same qual's as a man etc, and worked just as hard as a man, surely I would be entitled to the same pay?
true, but you're also 100% more likely to get pregnant than a man, so your employer will have to pay 9 months wages for you without anything in return. Obviously this is a generalisation, but I would say it is the main justification, women are just far riskier to employ then men due to the extra "breaks" which they can get.
Yeah, because supporting the continued existence of the human race is pretty stupid.
Try telling that to companies who want to make money. Like it or not, we live in a capitalist society.
All I'm saying is women have a choice - career or children. Men don't have a choice, hence why historically they have always been higher earners. You can't have it all.
I recently read a report about what jobs male and female graduates were looking for. The male top jobs were along the lines of managers, accountants and engineers whereas the women were interested in teaching and voluntary/charity work. Is it wrong that these men who go into important proffesions get paid more.
So you're basically saying that an accountant is more important than a teacher?
charliechaplin
i found the recent changes to the wimbledon prize money very interesting but predicatable. anyone agree with it?
as a white male i'm now very familiar with inequality in the workplace. while i never disclose my race on any application form, its difficult to hide my sex.
as a white male i'm now very familiar with inequality in the workplace. while i never disclose my race on any application form, its difficult to hide my sex.
I think that was farcial. Men should campaign to play best of three if thats the case.
shorty.loves.angels
I understand this but what if some women did exactly the same as men, same education same career etc... then she deserves equal pay right? and those who do less/have less education deserve less...?
I am talking in context of the article i read. If everything is equal; men and women should be paid the same. However, i have yet to find a report which clearly define's the true eqaulity of the men and the women in the survey with the conclusion that women get paid less. On the contrary i did once read a report to the opposite of this, stating that women got paid more than men when everything remains equal due to employers being worried about discrimination.
Bornstubborn
I am talking in context of the article i read. If everything is equal; men and women should be paid the same. However, i have yet to find a report which clearly define's the true eqaulity of the men and the women in the survey with the conclusion that women get paid less. On the contrary i did once read a report to the opposite of this, stating that women got paid more than men when everything remains equal due to employers being worried about discrimination.
Fair enough. But you do agree surely that if women are equal in education and work effort then they deserve equal pay?
I think it's a bit sad that women are less likely (apparently) to be hired than men because of maternity because some women really do want those jobs, and it isn't a case of the career or family choice. But at the same time I have always wondered why companies do pay maternity leavers, something just doesn't ring right in my head... but I am quite tired
Crystaltears
It's fair that men earn more money because they do more work, but what is not fair is that women can't work as many hours or travel because they have to be the ones responsible for the children. Why can't the men work part-time?
I think it's fine that men are earning more if they are doing more work, but I find it really unfair that women are expected to be the ones that have to be the primary carers for the children, so they don't have the opportunity to earn as much as men.
Yes, men probably are more willing to work in dangerous environments, but most of those jobs are not the very highly paid anyway, so it doesn't really affect this issue.
Also, it's not really fair to discriminate against women because they have to take maternity leave. I really doubt many women look forward to the pain of childbirth. And men want kids too - it's just that women have to push it out!
Men are encouraged to do more profitable subjects like politics and science, where as girls are always socialised into subjects like health and social care etc. It's not a coincidence that 82% of nurses are female!!
I totally agree with what you have said about women should not earn as much as men for doing less work, but women are not given the same opportunities as men and that is not fair. Gender stereo-types need to be broken down.
*feminist rant over*
I think it's fine that men are earning more if they are doing more work, but I find it really unfair that women are expected to be the ones that have to be the primary carers for the children, so they don't have the opportunity to earn as much as men.
Yes, men probably are more willing to work in dangerous environments, but most of those jobs are not the very highly paid anyway, so it doesn't really affect this issue.
Also, it's not really fair to discriminate against women because they have to take maternity leave. I really doubt many women look forward to the pain of childbirth. And men want kids too - it's just that women have to push it out!
Men are encouraged to do more profitable subjects like politics and science, where as girls are always socialised into subjects like health and social care etc. It's not a coincidence that 82% of nurses are female!!
I totally agree with what you have said about women should not earn as much as men for doing less work, but women are not given the same opportunities as men and that is not fair. Gender stereo-types need to be broken down.
*feminist rant over*
It is upto a couple to decide reponsibilities. Most women would prefer to look after the children and in some cases the men do.
There are some extremely well paid dangerous jobs, you are just unfamiliar with them.
Its not a matter of society and the role's of men and women, it is a matter of business's making money.
Well the reality of the situation is that many girls are aware of being socialised in one way of another such as yourself. Although you are aware of this socialisation, you will be studyiong sociology, whereas i study engineering. Who should earn more money when we graduate?
Thats just how it is!
*dances in the rays of sexism still beaming from centuries ago* Glad it's still alive and well!
OP nobody would say a female teacher should earn the same as a male doctor. BUT a male doctor and a female doctor doing the same job should get the same pay. It's not a difficult concept. I cannot see how anyone could argue against this being the way it should be done... All this "maternity leave" malarchy frustrates me as well, as though women should be paid less because of the theoretical children they might have.
When you consider that women have been shown to achieve higher grades from GCSE to degree level on average across the board it is shocking that they are still paid less for the same job. One of my friends is in an apprenticeship and is earning a full £5000 less a year than her fellow male apprentice. Absolutely ridiculous.
Although the Wimbledon thing is stupid IMO as the men are playing for longer on average so the winnings should reflect this.
OP nobody would say a female teacher should earn the same as a male doctor. BUT a male doctor and a female doctor doing the same job should get the same pay. It's not a difficult concept. I cannot see how anyone could argue against this being the way it should be done... All this "maternity leave" malarchy frustrates me as well, as though women should be paid less because of the theoretical children they might have.
When you consider that women have been shown to achieve higher grades from GCSE to degree level on average across the board it is shocking that they are still paid less for the same job. One of my friends is in an apprenticeship and is earning a full £5000 less a year than her fellow male apprentice. Absolutely ridiculous.
Although the Wimbledon thing is stupid IMO as the men are playing for longer on average so the winnings should reflect this.
I think its difficult. Women are likely to take time out for children, thats assumed when a women enters a career, and thats something an employer has to think about. In high paid business, maternity leave is a lot of money, and it must be considered. Then theres the risk of them not coming back, after having invested thousands of pounds on training them. Plus the added hassle of finding a replacement.
I think pay should be equal, if equal work is put in. I think having children is always going to be an issue, but I don't think its enough to justify lower salaries.
I think your confusing the issue here, noone is saying men and women should be equal in all careers regardless of effort (are they?). If men work more hours, they will get paid accordingly, same can be said for women. The fact that men take up higher paid careers, will travel further to work and will take more risks has no relevance here. That means that men on average will earn more, which is no problem (and will change as time progresses). The problem comes when individual men of equal status to other women get paid more, simply because they are men. Not because they work more, or harder, but because they are a men.
I think pay should be equal, if equal work is put in. I think having children is always going to be an issue, but I don't think its enough to justify lower salaries.
I think your confusing the issue here, noone is saying men and women should be equal in all careers regardless of effort (are they?). If men work more hours, they will get paid accordingly, same can be said for women. The fact that men take up higher paid careers, will travel further to work and will take more risks has no relevance here. That means that men on average will earn more, which is no problem (and will change as time progresses). The problem comes when individual men of equal status to other women get paid more, simply because they are men. Not because they work more, or harder, but because they are a men.
This Is Not A Username
So you're basically saying that an accountant is more important than a teacher?
In a financial sense, yes. An accountant is more important. In a 'who benefits society more', you could argue the teacher.
An accountant will ultimately earn a lot more than a teacher. This is just a fact!
Reblet
Although the Wimbledon thing is stupid IMO as the men are playing for longer on average so the winnings should reflect this.
Although the Wimbledon thing is stupid IMO as the men are playing for longer on average so the winnings should reflect this.
Hmmm, just thinking through... what if one football team (this is a completely random example btw) wins the FA cup (eg) after a 90 min match, but on another occasion, a different team wins after extra time, penalties etc etc everything possible; theyve played for longer... do they deserve more winnings?
I understand this but what if some women did exactly the same as men, same education same career etc... then she deserves equal pay right? and those who do less/have less education deserve less...?
If this was the case, then if you were to be lucky (and I wouldn't be surprised living in this over PC country) and Harriet Harman's legislation were to be passed, us men wouldn't even get a look in at the job if you were to turn up to interview (if we had equal quals), so this whole argument about pay could well become meaningless. In the future women will get paid more and it will be unnatural because it will be due to legislation being passed rather than women earning it. How will it ever be equal pay-wise if it isn't equal at the level of selection for employment?
Bornstubborn
I am sorry but you people are disregarding some facts. It is factual that men work more hours than women on average, it is factual men take up riskier work than women, its factual that men persue an education that will result in a higher paid career and its factual that men will travel further for work.
I recently read a report about what jobs male and female graduates were looking for. The male top jobs were along the lines of managers, accountants and engineers whereas the women were interested in teaching and voluntary/charity work. Is it wrong that these men who go into important proffesions get paid more.
If we were to make pay 'equal', i think it would result in everyone getting paid less rather than women getting paid more.
I think many of you are missing the point. The article i read stated how much people were earning based on whether they were doing full time work or part time work, it didn't factor in the job, the risk factor, the amount of travel, experience and education. It just said women are getting discriminated against because men are earning more in part time and full time jobs.
I recently read a report about what jobs male and female graduates were looking for. The male top jobs were along the lines of managers, accountants and engineers whereas the women were interested in teaching and voluntary/charity work. Is it wrong that these men who go into important proffesions get paid more.
If we were to make pay 'equal', i think it would result in everyone getting paid less rather than women getting paid more.
I think many of you are missing the point. The article i read stated how much people were earning based on whether they were doing full time work or part time work, it didn't factor in the job, the risk factor, the amount of travel, experience and education. It just said women are getting discriminated against because men are earning more in part time and full time jobs.
I might be misunderstanding your argument, but I think it's you that's missing the point.
When people say that they believe women should earn the same as men, they generally mean "if a woman and a man are both doing the exact same job, or a job with very similar responsibilities, tasks, and qualification levels, working the same number of hours, they should be paid the same". They're not saying "women who are nurses should be paid the same as men who are doctors, because most nurses are female, but the sexes should be paid equally!!11" (I know most junior doctors are now female too, so maybe not a great example
) If a man and a woman have got the same qualifications, the same level of experience (if relevant), and perform a job to the same standard, then they should receive the same level of pay, simple as. However, you're right to say that women are usually socialised into choosing 'nurturing' jobs such as teaching and nursing, while men are encouraged to fulfil a 'breadwinner' role and aim for the highest-paying profession they can, and it's fair to say that women therefore end up in lower-paying jobs than men. As far as I can see, nobody in this thread is suggesting that workers in poorly-paid, female-dominated jobs should get some kind of automatic pay rise in the interests of equality. (I would say that perhaps we need to look at how society values, or undervalues, workers in 'nurturing' and female-dominated jobs, but I suspect this thread isn't the place for that debate.)I'm nauseated by those of you who are posting to the effect that women should place their family duties above their careers. I'm costing the government £250,000* to train as a doctor - why should that be wasted by me staying at home with my kids, just because I happen to have one more X chromosome than my future husband? If I do have children (and a less broody woman you'd struggle to find), I'd just hire a nanny and go back to work...
* caveat - have seen this figure bandied around a lot, but am not sure I've seen a source!
Bornstubborn
I find it odd that people believe one group should earn as much as another group just because its 'not fair'. I think it is clear to all logical minds that men pursue education that will lead to more profitable careers
I find it odd that people believe one group should earn as much as another group just because its 'not fair'. I think it is clear to all logical minds that men pursue education that will lead to more profitable careers
Bornstubborn
they are willing to work in dangerous environments,
Some are, some aren't. Don't be so stupid.
Bornstubborn
they will work more hours
So, no women do 60 hour weeks as doctors or whatever? Only men? Riiiiight.
Bornstubborn
travel further
Plenty of women will travel, pelase back that up
Bornstubborn
they will not be taking 9 months off everytime they feel broody.
Not all women are baby making machines, some never get broody - why should they suffer?!
Bornstubborn
In my mind if men are more profitable to company's then they have every right to earn more money and we should abandon the ridiculous notion that women should earn as much as men just because its 'fair'.
Who says they're more profitable?! Some of the best business people are women. So if they earn the company twice as much per year for 10 years, then have the audacity to reproduce, they should suffer?
Bornstubborn
I have never heard of people arguing in favour of certain ethnic groups getting paid more, even though there is a clear distinction between the salary's of certain ethnic groups.
They shouldn't get paid more, they should be paid the same. Whether they do or not is a different matter, like with women.
Bornstubborn
I think it is clear that when you address the issue of ineqaulity in the salary of men and women, you should be careful to note if infact men are earning more simply because they are doing more rather than a case of any form of discrimination against women.
I think it is clear that when you address the issue of ineqaulity in the salary of men and women, you should be careful to note if infact men are earning more simply because they are doing more rather than a case of any form of discrimination against women.
So if 2 people, 1 male 1 female, are working for a company, doing the same job, earning the company the same - how is the man doing more?
Bornstubborn
If it is the case that men are doing more (Something i consider to be obvious) then surely it is discrimination to pay women the same for doing less.
If it is the case that men are doing more (Something i consider to be obvious) then surely it is discrimination to pay women the same for doing less.
As above.
Bornstubborn
It reminds me of Wimbledon, there were many campaigners complaining that the women get paid less and so they increased the womens prize so it was equal to the men's prize. However the men play 5 sets, 2 more than the women and so women in Wimbledon are getting paid more than the men. Wimbledon is a good analogy for the workplace in this sense.
So maybe they should get paid less then - but that's just 1 scenario.
WithFlyingColours
The thing is, women need to decide between a career and having children.
Now the government pushes women back into work as soon as they can - knowing a couple for women with young kids, I can tell you pressure is really put on them.
I think for the same job, people should get the same pay. And women tend to go into teaching and such because they're still discouraged by careers people from aiming for more traditionally male professions. Interestingly, in my experience female careers people are worse for this.
But even in school, we weren't allowed to put on our future things that we wanted to be "just" a housewife/mother - we had to have a career aim!
Which is a little odd. But you honestly do get looked down on now for wanting to be a parent only.Odd.
WithFlyingColours
Try telling that to companies who want to make money. Like it or not, we live in a capitalist society.
All I'm saying is women have a choice - career or children. Men don't have a choice, hence why historically they have always been higher earners. You can't have it all.
All I'm saying is women have a choice - career or children. Men don't have a choice, hence why historically they have always been higher earners. You can't have it all.
The title of the thread is "Should women earn as much as men?", and that's the question I'm trying to address. I'm not sure about you, but for me, the word "should" implies the question is one of morals. Morally, I think my point stands.
Oh, and with regards to the "choice" you mention above, what you say is only true for the period of pregnancy. It's entirely possible for men to care for children. Maternity leave is not 9 months long, it's (a maximum of) 26 weeks. Any additional maternity leave is unpayed.
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