US Elections: Sway me. Watch

Melancholy
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Vesta)
I knew that :cool:

Which of his other policies can be deemed "socialist"?
Things like increasing the minimum wage and indexing it to inflation to ensure a decent living wage for those in employment. Guaranteeing paid sick days for at least seven days a year. His emphasis is very much on helping the poor; for example supporting smaller businesses, and supporting legislation to get low income families onto the property ladder. Pledging to reverse Bush's tax cuts for the rich and making a more progressive tax system.

The main one off the top of my head is the controversial healthcare plan, though, which I mentioned and which you already knew about. He's no John Edwards or Ernest Bevin, but he is a quasi-socialist, which isn't surprising for a Democrat.
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Vesta
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#22
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(Original post by Melancholy)
Things like increasing the minimum wage and indexing it to inflation to ensure a decent living wage for those in employment. Guaranteeing paid sick days for at least seven days a year. His emphasis is very much on helping the poor; for example supporting smaller businesses, and supporting legislation to get low income families onto the property ladder. Pledging to reverse Bush's tax cuts for the rich and making a more progressive tax system.

The main one off the top of my head is the controversial healthcare plan, though, which I mentioned and which you already knew about. He's no John Edwards or Ernest Bevin, but he is a quasi-socialist, which isn't surprising for a Democrat.
Ah okay, thanks. Seeing his plans for the economy and such would make me think twice about giving him my vote (were I a US citizen).
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Agent Smith
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#23
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#23
I back the Republicans on foreign policy (mostly) and the economy, but the problem is that when it comes to social matters, like gay and women's rights for example, my conscience tells me to support the Democrats
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Melancholy
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#24
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#24
Yeh, McCain's running mate is quite a detestable person.
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Reagan Smash
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Grape190190)
This is the main reason I'm picking at your post, because I honestly don't get the Hilary-supporters who switched to McSame after the bitterness of the primaries. I've hit some of their blogs and had spats with the PUMAs (Party Unity My Ass). If you're voting on the issues, surely it's just irresponsible to go to McCain - because Obama and Clinton are practically identical on policies.

(Indeed, the biggest difference is a slight one in their health care plans, and Clinton is to the left of Obama on that! She advocated 100% coverage, while Obama basically wants 100% access.)

I usually get a lot of, "Obama's not really a liberal! He's a mysoginist!" which is just a delusion, since he's the third most liberal Senator in Congress. I don't get it.

It's like those people don't realise the power they have in their hands. The next President could well have the power to effectively over-tune Roe vs Wade. What kinda moron would vote for the pro-lifer rather than the pro-choice candidate just because they're pissed off about the nomination process. Generations of feminists aren't going to thank them for sticking up for Hilary; they're going to lambast them for their short-sightedness.

Ok first, I didn't switch to McCain because I'm bitter over Hilary losing. Tbh, when I first wrote my post I was pretty much on the fence, I don't like either Obama or McCain and neither of them would be my first choice to be President. However, from the start of this whole process I have not liked Obama for the reasons I stated in my previous post, to me he's all talk and no substance, its not because i'm bitter. I wouldn't class myself as a democrat or a republican, so party unity is not an issue.

I don't really get your last point. I'm a pro lifer so If I was American (which I'm not so this is rather pointless because my choice doesn't matter in the slightest) so I wouldn't be voting for McCain on that issue over bitterness, more on my own beliefs. its probably gonna sound selfish of me,. but the issues that I;m really concerned about are the economy and Iraq when it comes to the next president, yes like you have said McCain has said hes not the best when it comes to economics, but then thats where advice from the cabinet comes in handy. And with Iraq, the war is probably not gonna end soon, there a lot of time to plan a pulling out strategy, and in my mind thats a lot better than just pulling out now and leaving us and a lot of other countries who are fighting there alone.
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Grim_the_Reaper
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#26
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(Original post by Reagan Smash)
And with Iraq, the war is probably not gonna end soon, there a lot of time to plan a pulling out strategy, and in my mind thats a lot better than just pulling out now and leaving us and a lot of other countries who are fighting there alone.
We're in the process of pulling out atm and in all probability will be out long before the US . The United States will be basically be the one who turns out the lights after everyone else has left.
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#1Genius
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#27
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(Original post by Agent Smith)
I back the Republicans on foreign policy (mostly) and the economy, but the problem is that when it comes to social matters, like gay and women's rights for example, my conscience tells me to support the Democrats
I take issue with this too. I think we can probably put it down to the fact that the umbrella terms 'Republican' and 'Democrat' are far broader than 'Labour' and 'Conservative', though; there are progressive and traditionalist factions abound, and any number of differing perceptions within these groupings. I feel uncomfortable with McCain, but my conscience says Republican.

Can I ask which party you tend to identify with in terms of UK politics, out of interest?
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Agent Smith
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#28
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#28
(Original post by #1Genius)
I take issue with this too. I think we can probably put it down to the fact that the umbrella terms 'Republican' and 'Democrat' are far broader than 'Labour' and 'Conservative', though; there are progressive and traditionalist factions abound, and any number of differing perceptions within these groupings. I feel uncomfortable with McCain, but my conscience says Republican.

Can I ask which party you tend to identify with in terms of UK politics, out of interest?
I don't, really, because we don't have a Liberal Party.
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Agent Smith
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Bismarck)
On the one hand, you have someone who's going to reduce the deficit (or at least not increase it),
Didn't Reagan and Bush Jr both increase it hugely, though? Can the Republicans be trusted with that particular aspect of the economy?
continue free trade policies,
Goes without saying.
keep regulation at the same level,
Source?
and possibly choose a conservative to the Supreme Court.
What's so good about that?
On the other hand, you have someone who promises to increase the deficit by $700-800 billion ($500-600 billion in spending increases and $200 billion in tax cuts),
True.
"renegotiate" trade agreements (including NAFTA),
But on what terms?
increase regulation,
Again, source?
and run an incredibly naive foreign policy (at least at the beginning).
How do you know that?
You also have someone who knows how to get things done and will likely experience a minimal learning curve (McCain)
True.
and someone who won't know anything about what he's doing and probably have major screwups in his first year or two in office.
Until last night, that would have been a convincing point. But Palin is younger than Obama and has roughly the same level of experience.

EDIT: /fisk :p:
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Agent Smith
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Bismarck)
Reagan did, Bush Sr. inherited Reagan's mess and did actually try to reduce the deficit (which is one of the main reasons he didn't win reelection).
How/why did Reagan manage it? It's not strictly relevant, I'm just curious.
Google it. McCain is for deregulation in many areas. He's a liberal in that regard.
Fair enough.
He wants countries we trade with to have the same labor and environmental standards as us. Needless to say, that's physically impossible in countries like Mexico and China. Since those countries aren't going to be willing to wreck their economies just to maintain an already signed trade agreement with the US, we'll probably end up souring our relations with them and end up enacting tariffs on their products.
Oh wow. "Fair Trade" as foreign policy :rolleyes:
From his idiotic statements on foreign policy so far. Invading Pakistan,
WHAT?
unconditional talks with Iran and North Korea, saying that an undivided Jerusalem will always be part of Israel (even the Israelis don't go that far), letting the UN deal with the situation in Georgia, etc. Let's face it, the guy has no foreign policy experience.
That does sound a bit like "a little knowledge". Blundering into an unfortunate statement of position without thinking first...
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Captain Crash
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Bismarck)
On the one hand, you have someone who's going to reduce the deficit (or at least not increase it), continue free trade policies, keep regulation at the same level, and possibly choose a conservative to the Supreme Court. On the other hand, you have someone who promises to increase the deficit by $700-800 billion ($500-600 billion in spending increases and $200 billion in tax cuts), "renegotiate" trade agreements (including NAFTA), increase regulation, and run an incredibly naive foreign policy (at least at the beginning). You also have someone who knows how to get things done and will likely experience a minimal learning curve (McCain) and someone who won't know anything about what he's doing and probably have major screwups in his first year or two in office.
I wouldn't back McCain on the economy as much as you make out - he wants to extend the tax cuts that Bush took for one. Even the Economist says that's a terrible idea. Meanwhile, contrary to what you say, Obama has a well thought out economic plan and indeed is much more suited to the economy than McCain and his Gramm-esque cronies.
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GarageMc
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#32
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#32
If I were American I would not vote

This could not send a better message to the parties, that something new is needed, there is a need for a third major party in America, only then will progress occur.

At the moment, the nation is divided, it's going nowhere fast, the policies of Obama and McCain are largely the same, it's just that they looks so different.

As far as conservatism goes McCain isn't exactly one whatsoever. Obama wants more government.

I would take a stand and lead a campaign for not voting in America.
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Hibbleton34
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#33
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#33
(Original post by PeeWeeDan)
Essentially I am adversed to socialism so Obama leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
If you think Obama is a socialist, you need to learn what socialism is.
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Kondar
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#34
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#34
(Original post by GarageMc)
If I were American I would not vote

This could not send a better message to the parties, that something new is needed, there is a need for a third major party in America, only then will progress occur.

At the moment, the nation is divided, it's going nowhere fast, the policies of Obama and McCain are largely the same, it's just that they looks so different.

As far as conservatism goes McCain isn't exactly one whatsoever. Obama wants more government.

I would take a stand and lead a campaign for not voting in America.
Most Americans don't bother to vote anyways, so I think your point would be lost.
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alamode09
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#35
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^that, and not voting is not the smartest decision. you will get a few thousand people to follow you, but then what?
in any election, righteous conservatives/republicans/friends/family will vote for Mccain. righteous liberals/democrats/friends/family will vote for Obama. some in the middle will vote based on who they agree with regarding the issues. some in the middle will vote based on who they like better. some in the middle wont vote because they don't know who to vote for, or they were busy, or they forgot to get an absentee ballot. it's the people in the middle that make most of the difference.

your "campaign" would simply cause more people in the middle to not vote. it really wouldn't make a difference at all.
--
anyway. i'm not loving either candidate. thankfully I'll only be 17 by nov. so I don't have to vote, but some of my friends aren't so lucky =P
you really just have to vote for whichever candidate you think would be less disastrous.
at the moment, i'm leaning towards obama....perhaps because the democratic ticket/his family/the campaign just seems a lot more stable right now. the mccain/palin thing looks like a complete freakin circus.
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prepschoolcool
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Grape190190)

The next President could well have the power to effectively over-tune Roe vs Wade.
Surely if McCain was elected he would not be able to make a constitutional amendment- surely it would be left up for individual states to decide? much like gay rights?

I find myself agreeing with the Democrats stance on social issues/foreign policy, and the Republicans on most budget/spending/corporation issues. Which leaves me in rather a quandry.
Obama's idea for a universal health care system is one I support...
Can someone explain to me the term "pork-barrel", as in 'pork-barrel' bills?
Am trying to educate myself before the election....
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tis_me_lord
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#37
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#37
(Original post by prepschoolcool)
I find myself agreeing with the Democrats stance on social issues/foreign policy, and the Republicans on most budget/spending/corporation issues.
I am pretty much the same as you here, just a few differences.

- If what Bismark said about Obama and Pakistan is correct, no way do I support democrats foreign policy in full. Personally I just want the whole war on terror to just be ignored and it WILL go away.

- I agree with republicans on not just SOME of their spending policy, compared to the democrats at least - but all of it. (Except war in Iraq, needless taxes imo.) I'm anti-nationalised health servise as well.

Basically when it come to reduced taxes, not as much spending, not regulating business too much, free trade etc etc I am firmly on the side of McCain.

However socially I am pro choice with abortion, any sexual acts between consenting adults, legalise drugs and prostitution etc etc which really goes against the moral policing that republicans seem to have a fetish for. Could maybe Bismark, or some other republican supporter try to convince me that supporting republicans whilst having my social stance wouldn't be so bad?

Another major issue not yet mentioned is that whilst I am generally opposed to regulation on business - I DO support environmental regulation. Something Obama is more likely to take seriously than McCain.
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Kondar
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#38
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(Original post by tis_me_lord)
- If what Bismark said about Obama and Pakistan is correct, no way do I support democrats foreign policy in full. Personally I just want the whole war on terror to just be ignored and it WILL go away.
When asked about Al-Qaeda elements hiding out along the Afghan-Pakistan border, on the Pakistan side and thus being off limits to NATO forces, Obama said:

“Let me make this clear,” Obama said in a speech prepared for delivery at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. “There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaida leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.”

FYI this is not a democrat stance and he was hit pretty hard in the primaries because of this statement.
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Grape190190
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#39
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#39
(Original post by prepschoolcool)
Surely if McCain was elected he would not be able to make a constitutional amendment- surely it would be left up for individual states to decide? much like gay rights?
The President nominates justices to the Supreme Court. The two oldest judges at the moment are considered to be liberals. McCain would replace withe of them with conservatives. The balance of the court would then be overwhelmingly conservative, and so the court would likely over-turn Rove vs Wade, returning the power to ban abortions to states.
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Captain Crash
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Bismarck)
What's your point? Both McCain and Obama promise tax cuts. The difference is that McCain isn't promising to increase spending by $500-600 billion a year. And do tell how increasing spending by that much is a "well thought out plan". Unless by "well thought out", you mean handing out money to anyone and everyone, while enacting tariffs on any developing country that dares to export things to the US.
The difference is that Obama's plan states exactly how much money is lost by the tax cuts and how much is gained by the reversal of the Bush tax cuts on the rich and closing tax loopholes. This results in a surplus, which coupled with reviewed spending and new accountability for government shows how he can afford to spend on what he plans.

McCain meanwhile is commiting to extending the Bush tax cuts (even the economist says this is a bad idea) without stating how his is going to fund his healthcare plan other than an ambigious 'cut spending'
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