Privatise Healthcare, Privatise Education. Watch

Bateman
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#21
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#21
The idea is a joke, it would increase the income gap.
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misswilliams
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#22
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No.

Edit: has been debated here often, many reasons against are above.
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TommyWannabe
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#23
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(Original post by Howard)
Crap contribution.
No, this is a crap contribution;



Coincidentally it's also what I think to people's opinions that healthcare should be privatised.
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TruckBear
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#24
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(Original post by Howard)
The experience in the US is that when people lose their insurance coverage (perhaps as a result of a job loss for example) and have to pay for healthcare out of their own pockets they skimp on treatment. They "put up" with the tooth cavity that needs filling or they take one pill a day rather than the two they were prescribed. Call it a hunch, but I suspect that the same sort of behaviour would be true for people who have insufficient savings in their healthcare account.
The system he's detailed is pretty much the Singaporean system of healthcare. It's much more efficient than the US system, because by law all the different healthcare providers have to publish price lists. In the US you just can't get this information (or so I've heard). Furthermore, in the Singaporean system, I think they have a certain level of public sector involvement, competing with the private sector. This keeps them honest to an extent, as it stops the private sector from using its scarcity power to drive up prices so much.

Your presumption that private sector healthcare is more expensive it just not necessarily true. In the UK it has to be high quality, because it's competing against a not-that-bad alternative that's completely free. With high quality comes high prices. In the US health insurance is expensive because the system is so opaque and because the companies have to have massive bureaucracies working out who they can offer insurance to and for what price, so they don't end up insuring somebody who's a massive risk.

I think that a certain level of privatisation has its benefits.
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TruckBear
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#25
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http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/...ores_heal.html

Y'all might find this interesting.
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DrunkHamster
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#26
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(Original post by HJV)
Empirical evidence suggests that a high portion of private education is not good. Compare, for example, the PISA scores between UK (private education fairly common) and Finland (private schools practically inexistent).
This is an terrible comparison because you're not comparing like with like. If you really wanted to be fair about it, you'd compare UK private schools with UK state schools.

I've never heard a good argument against a voucher system, ever. The average cost to the state system of educating a child is £9 000 a year (40% of which, incidentally, goes to LEAs rather than schools). Imagine if instead of this, the government gave the parents of every child a voucher for £9k which they could take to any school which would take their kid. Bringing a bit of competition into the provision of education would make the worst off children so much better off, yet it still doesn't happen because of the power and influence of the teaching unions.
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FoxboroHotTubs:)
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#27
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Just no...
it wouldn't work and the really low income families wouldn't be able to afford it at all. We should be proud of the NHS (even if it can be a bit dodgy at times) we are really lucky that everybody has access to the health care they need.
As for privatising schools it may increase competition but the poorer people would go to less pleasant schools?
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34253
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(Original post by FoxboroHotTubs:))
Just no...
it wouldn't work and the really low income families wouldn't be able to afford it at all. We should be proud of the NHS (even if it can be a bit dodgy at times) we are really lucky that everybody has access to the health care they need.
As for privatising schools it may increase competition but the poorer people would go to less pleasant schools?
The poorer people would go to schools that are equally good to private institutions, they will just ruin them. The reason schools are bad in bad areas isn't because they are under funded it's because they aren't provided with the over funding they need to deal with a whole series of problems created by the parents and children that attend those schools. Much of the reason private schools are better is because behavior isn't an issue.
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woofums
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(Original post by Elipsis)
The poorer people would go to schools that are equally good to private institutions, they will just ruin them. The reason schools are bad in bad areas isn't because they are under funded it's because they aren't provided with the over funding they need to deal with a whole series of problems created by the parents and children that attend those schools. Much of the reason private schools are better is because behavior isn't an issue.
:eek: what? poor children and parents ruin the schools they go to? Being poor doesnt mean you instantly become some knife wielding rebel hell bent on ruining a school. in fact only a small minority do. The reason schools in poorer areas arent as good is due to large class sizes, facilities and the teachers that work there. Private schools also have problems with regards to bad behaviour, it isnt just poor people that dont behave.
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34253
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(Original post by woofums)
:eek: what? poor children and parents ruin the schools they go to? Being poor doesnt mean you instantly become some knife wielding rebel hell bent on ruining a school. in fact only a small minority do. The reason schools in poorer areas arent as good is due to large class sizes, facilities and the teachers that work there. Private schools also have problems with regards to bad behaviour, it isnt just poor people that dont behave.
The behaviour in private and grammar schools is far superior to that of schools in bad areas, there is no denying it. I know full well not every child misbehaves, I misbehaved but not nearly on par with other people in my year. I know misbehaviour exists in private schools as well but they don't put up with it, if you abuse a teacher more than once you're out but in state schools it's an every day occurence. At the threat of being kicked out of private many parents sort their own childrens behaviour out before it goes too far as well.

Many of my teachers had worked in both private school and state schools yet in pvt they were getting a full set of A/A*s and in state they were lucky to get 1/4 of the year in the A-C range. When I went to college I had some amazing teachers and because everybody was there because they wanted to learn they behaved and some teaching actually got done. The class sizes were 20-25 for a-levels for one teacher yet we all got A-C.

The only variable between a state school in a good area and a state school in a bad area is the intake of children that they get, they get the same funding yet they get much higher grades. I will certainly be sending my children to private schools so they aren't dragged down by the children of parents who don't give a crap.
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woofums
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(Original post by Elipsis)
The behaviour in private and grammar schools is far superior to that of schools in bad areas, there is no denying it. I know full well not every child misbehaves, I misbehaved but not nearly on par with other people in my year. I know misbehaviour exists in private schools as well but they don't put up with it, if you abuse a teacher more than once you're out but in state schools it's an every day occurence. At the threat of being kicked out of private many parents sort their own childrens behaviour out before it goes too far as well.

Many of my teachers had worked in both private school and state schools yet in pvt they were getting a full set of A/A*s and in state they were lucky to get 1/4 of the year in the A-C range. When I went to college I had some amazing teachers and because everybody was there because they wanted to learn they behaved and some teaching actually got done. The class sizes were 20-25 for a-levels for one teacher yet we all got A-C.

The only variable between a state school in a good area and a state school in a bad area is the intake of children that they get, they get the same funding yet they get much higher grades. I will certainly be sending my children to private schools so they aren't dragged down by the children of parents who don't give a crap.
Its only a very small amount of parents though that dont give a crap, the high majority of parents from my school did give a crap and that had a catchment area made up almost solely from poor families. Never did anyone assault a teacher but if they had done, they would have been expelled. i would say that state schools are more likely to expel someone than a private school tbh.

Also the bad behaviour exhibited in private and state schools differ enormously in terms of the type of behaviour. Maybe one of the reaons that your teachers had higher success in their private school classes was because they had better facilities and equipment. In my school there was a lack of decent textbooks,lab equipoment, library facilitites and computers which wouldnt be acceptable in private schools.

I agree that some parents dont teach their children to behave properly. A very small minority though that isnt actually affected by wealth as this type of parenting can be found in both poor and wealthy families.
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34253
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#32
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(Original post by woofums)
Its only a very small amount of parents though that dont give a crap, the high majority of parents from my school did give a crap and that had a catchment area made up almost solely from poor families. Never did anyone assault a teacher but if they had done, they would have been expelled. i would say that state schools are more likely to expel someone than a private school tbh.

Also the bad behaviour exhibited in private and state schools differ enormously in terms of the type of behaviour. Maybe one of the reaons that your teachers had higher success in their private school classes was because they had better facilities and equipment. In my school there was a lack of decent textbooks,lab equipoment, library facilitites and computers which wouldnt be acceptable in private schools.

I agree that some parents dont teach their children to behave properly. A very small minority though that isnt actually affected by wealth as this type of parenting can be found in both poor and wealthy families.
The whole facilities argument is completely void. Schools in differing cachement areas have the same funding but one group gets more than they put in, why is this? In my school whenever we were given anything nice people would just destroy it. Maths is hardly dependant on supplies either, we had the same text books used by all students for GCSEs. We also had a state of the art gym with some of the best facilities in the country, certainly in the whole of my county; yet would you believe it? Other schools with worse facilities but in better areas got higher grades in PE...In my school teachers were verbally abused and only occasionally physically abused (which would have been an expulsion right there). I don't think you understand just how misbehaved some schools are if you think it's only a small minority. Our setting at school was basically done on behaviour and out of 6 sets the bottom 4 were filled with about half-full misbehaving kids. Yes a parent can be a crap parent if they send their child private but when they realise their money is in jeopardy of being wasted they boot the kid up the arse to behave. Poor bad parents have put nothing in and have nothing to lose, why would they care if their child gets kicked out of a school they aren't going to achieve in anyway?
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geetar
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#33
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#33
Disagree.
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HJV
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#34
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(Original post by DrunkHamster)
This is an terrible comparison because you're not comparing like with like. If you really wanted to be fair about it, you'd compare UK private schools with UK state schools.
Comparing UK private and state schools would be pointless. It wouldn't provide any evidence as to whether a state school majority or a private sector-run schooling system is more effective.

I was comparing a system where state schools make up more than 95% of schools to a mixed system, noting that the one where state schools make up the majority is more successful. If a larger proportion of state schools in a given state is better, one could deduce that increasing the amount of private schools would have a negative effect.
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woofums
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#35
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(Original post by Elipsis)
The whole facilities argument is completely void. Schools in differing cachement areas have the same funding but one group gets more than they put in, why is this? In my school whenever we were given anything nice people would just destroy it. Maths is hardly dependant on supplies either, we had the same text books used by all students for GCSEs. We also had a state of the art gym with some of the best facilities in the country, certainly in the whole of my county; yet would you believe it? Other schools with worse facilities but in better areas got higher grades in PE...In my school teachers were verbally abused and only occasionally physically abused (which would have been an expulsion right there). I don't think you understand just how misbehaved some schools are if you think it's only a small minority. Our setting at school was basically done on behaviour and out of 6 sets the bottom 4 were filled with about half-full misbehaving kids. Yes a parent can be a crap parent if they send their child private but when they realise their money is in jeopardy of being wasted they boot the kid up the arse to behave. Poor bad parents have put nothing in and have nothing to lose, why would they care if their child gets kicked out of a school they aren't going to achieve in anyway?
I do realise that some schools do have problems with bad behaviour. however this isnt solely down to being poor/ having bad parents. At my school, there was a similar thing regarding the sets. The top half sets were given better teachers, the better facilities and were treated differently. But this format of sets is another factor into why some pupils misbehave. if you are put into sets deemed for those of less intelligence with other pupils, are given bad teachers, have bad facilities and there is an attitude towards these sets from the teachers that they wont achieve anything so why bother. So therefore if everyone cant be bothered with teaching you properly and there is an attitude of 'youre not going to achieve anything' then yes behaviour will be bad. But you could have the best parents in the world, if you are dumped into those sets in year 7 (based on year 6 SATS) it was very hard to move up into higher sets. So with the negative attitudes towards these groups and lack of equipment, The bad behaviour is unavoidable. But that has nothing to do with being poor or **** parents.
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Howard
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#36
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(Original post by IeuanF)
The system he's detailed is pretty much the Singaporean system of healthcare. It's much more efficient than the US system, because by law all the different healthcare providers have to publish price lists. In the US you just can't get this information (or so I've heard). Furthermore, in the Singaporean system, I think they have a certain level of public sector involvement, competing with the private sector. This keeps them honest to an extent, as it stops the private sector from using its scarcity power to drive up prices so much.

Your presumption that private sector healthcare is more expensive it just not necessarily true. In the UK it has to be high quality, because it's competing against a not-that-bad alternative that's completely free. With high quality comes high prices. In the US health insurance is expensive because the system is so opaque and because the companies have to have massive bureaucracies working out who they can offer insurance to and for what price, so they don't end up insuring somebody who's a massive risk.

I think that a certain level of privatisation has its benefits.
Indeed. I'm not anti-privatisation as a matter of principle and like you, I've read good things about Singapore's approach. It's just rather unfortunate the only real experience I have of private medicine is in the US where it is so appallingly mismanaged, complicated, bad, corrupt, and expensive, that it gives me a headache just thinking about it.
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DrunkHamster
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#37
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(Original post by HJV)
Comparing UK private and state schools would be pointless. It wouldn't provide any evidence as to whether a state school majority or a private sector-run schooling system is more effective.

I was comparing a system where state schools make up more than 95% of schools to a mixed system, noting that the one where state schools make up the majority is more successful. If a larger proportion of state schools in a given state is better, one could deduce that increasing the amount of private schools would have a negative effect.
You certainly couldn't deduce that, because it simply doesn't follow. Anyway, I tried to find the actual figures: apparently in Finland "seven percent of general upper secondary schools are maintained by private education providers," according to their National Board of Education at least. Guess what? That's the exact same percentage as in the UK.

At any rate, the argument you're making is a silly one. The fact that we can find a) countries with a high proportion of state schools and yet who still perform badly and b) countries with a low proportion of state schools at the top of the table (Hong Kong, for instance, is first in maths yet only 8% of schools are operated by the government) shows that you're barking up the wrong tree entirely.
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Renal
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#38
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(Original post by Andrew_2006)
As far as health care is concerned the government woud provide *emergency cover* for rare instances where the cost of health care is over the nominal saving amount.
Rare? Hahahahahahaha!

Health is the most expensive commodity on the planet.

The cost of renal failure, for example, with five years of dialysis followed by a transplant for example is around £192,000 with continuing costs of around £6,500 a year subsequently. Add in a bit of capitalism and it'll actually get more expensive. How many people, under your plan, are actually going to have that amount of money set aside?
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DrunkHamster
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(Original post by Renal)
Rare? Hahahahahahaha!

Health is the most expensive commodity on the planet.

The cost of renal failure, for example, with five years of dialysis followed by a transplant for example is around £192,000 with continuing costs of around £6,500 a year subsequently. Add in a bit of capitalism and it'll actually get more expensive. How many people, under your plan, are actually going to have that amount of money set aside?
Why do they have to set money aside? That's what insurance is for. It's like asking, what is someone going to do if their house burns down and all their possessions are destroyed? Well, if it gets to that point, it's pretty damn late. The obvious solution is to have insurance first.
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Renal
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(Original post by DrunkHamster)
Why do they have to set money aside?
Because, as you read at the top of the thread, that's the OP's plan...
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