James Bulger's killers - Should they be protected? Watch

jenifaar
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#21
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#21
I'm in two minds about this. I always thought that of course they shouldn't really be - what about Jamie's family; they have to go through pain every day having lost him, but his killers get the protection of the state?
But then i read a book, i think it was called Looking for JJ, that was about something similar - a child killing another child. Obviously the exact situation wasn't the same, but it made me think about the possibility of repentace. What those two boys did was horrible, but it has already resulted in one tragic loss of life. If those two boys have realised how bad what they've done is, and are judged to be safe to go back to the outside world now, what's the point in losing 3 lives? If they weren't protected, they'd have no quality of life. And vigilante justice is not right, no matter how wrong what they did was.
So it's a tough one. On one hand, they deserve to be punished...of course they do. But on the other hand, people can change, and there are probably all sorts of unconsidered factors that made them do what they do.
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ByronicHero
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#22
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first time i read about it i was young and i remmeber crying.

grr.
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Celtic_Anthony
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#23
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(Original post by thisisyesterday)

And then I guess there's the nature of the crime. Because of how disgusting it is, some people don't feel that 10 or so years in prison is enough..
That's not for them to care about, though. People should wise up and realise the people making these decisions are in a far better position than they are.
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princess_sue
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#24
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(Original post by Celtic_Anthony)
Named and shamed? Public humiliation (and whatever follows) has not been a part of our justice system for centuries, and nor should it be. What purpose does it serve? Are we really that insecure that we need to vilify others and group ourselves into nice, big, secure lynch mobs to make ourselves feel better about ourselves?

They've served their time. They were very young (younger than the age of criminal responsibility in some European countries) with a terrible upbringing. What they did was wrong, not a shadow of a doubt about it. However, we cannot possibly be advocating whole life sentences for 10 year olds when they can barely be held responsible for their actions.
Old enough to commit the crime - most certainly old enough to do the time the hideous crime deserves.

The act was premeditated, cold blooded murder an act which should carry a life sentence no matter what age.

I'm quite sure if you were the father of a child that died in horrific circumstances similar to that of James Bulger your opinion would be somewhat different....think of the mother's point of view, she could walk past the person that brutally murdered her son in the street and not even know it. To me, that is wrong.
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Truce
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#25
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They were 10 when they did it, and it's now what? Approaching 20 years later?

They've served their time in prison, and no, that doesn't bring James back. But neither does releasing their identity to the world only to find them 2 days later stabbed 16 times by some chav who thinks he's doing the world a favour.

They're not living a 'life', more of a hollow interpretation of one. Witness protection schemes don't let them have any significant freedom for their own safety, besides think about it; they're not stupid, they know that everyone hates them. If I was them I'd be forever living in fear and paranoia that someone might discover my true identity, and come back with a few of their vigilante friends.

So yes they should be protected, they've been punished enough. Let them be.
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thisisyesterday
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Celtic_Anthony)
Named and shamed? Public humiliation (and whatever follows) has not been a part of our justice system for centuries, and nor should it be. What purpose does it serve? Are we really that insecure that we need to vilify others and group ourselves into nice, big, secure lynch mobs to make ourselves feel better about ourselves?

They've served their time. They were very young (younger than the age of criminal responsibility in some European countries) with a terrible upbringing. What they did was wrong, not a shadow of a doubt about it. However, we cannot possibly be advocating whole life sentences for 10 year olds when they can barely be held responsible for their actions.

Especially considering the fact that they had such troubled upbringings themselves.. To do something like that and show no remorse isn't exactly 'normal'. I don't think they were just inherently evil children.. I just think they had a number of issues, which have hopefully been dealt with now.
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Norfolkadam
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#27
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(Original post by thisisyesterday)
Well some of the arguments are that it is costing the tax payer millions to keep their identity secret.. plus there has been negotiations with people not to publish their whereabouts which has cost another lump of money.

Then there is the issue which I raised in my original post about them getting with a woman and being under no obligation to disclose their true identity - and potentially having children with her. Yes, they have served their sentence - but is it right that someone else might end up with them being totally oblivious to their past?

And then I guess there's the nature of the crime. Because of how disgusting it is, some people don't feel that 10 or so years in prison is enough..
a) I think the phrase "millions" is waaaay out of proportion, there are plenty of people all around the UK who are under police protection. I actually think that it is money well spent to protect our system of justice and the police would have to protect them much, much more if their identities were known.

b) It is very unlikely that they would commit a crime as henous as this and not have gone through a massive level of psychological assesment before being allowed out of prison. If they are deemed to be safe to be set free then they are safe enough to be able to have childeren. I am a firm believer that people change, especially from when they were so young.

c) Just because you, personally, feel that 10 years is not long enough it gives you no right whatsoever to dictate any kind of justice. That is for the courts and legal system to decide. We agree to live by this sytem of rules when we live in this nation and so we must abide by them, we can argue and question them but we should not dispense our own justice.
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-WhySoSerious?
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#28
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(Original post by emilyjane_09)
They should be protected.
are you serious? it's ******* disgusting...
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jonny23563
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#29
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Of course they should! Otherwise they'd be killed by Daily Mail-reading mentalists.
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Celtic_Anthony
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#30
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(Original post by princess_sue)
Old enough to commit the crime - most certainly old enough to do the time the hideous crime deserves.

The act was premeditated, cold blooded murder an act which should carry a life sentence no matter what age.

I'm quite sure if you were the father of a child that died in horrific circumstances similar to that of James Bulger your opinion would be somewhat different....think of the mother's point of view, she could walk past the person that brutally murdered her son in the street and not even know it. To me, that is wrong.
Murder does carry a life sentence. Always.

I've asked my mum, after all- I was of a similar age as JB when it happened and it certainly had a profound effect on her. She certainly wasn't in favour of handing down whole life sentences to 10 year olds.

You seem to live in a nice black and white world. Unfortunately, it's shades of grey. Those who committed the crime were wronged, and those wrongs committed against them are most responsible for this tragedy.
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foundintransmission
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#31
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Hmm, I'm torn. I'd like to say they shouldn't and I think people should be able to know who they really are, especially people they're close too etc, but at the same time, they where kids when they did it and I feel I should say they didn't know what they where doing, but the whole thing was pretty horrific and when you're 10 I'm pretty sure you'd understand what you're doing. I dunno, I keep going in circles when I think about it, I can see both sides of the argument though.
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L i b
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#32
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I believe in the ability to reform, particularly from a crime you committed when you were a child. I'm sure a parole hearing would be best placed to judge whether indeed they have.

Of course I believe they should be protected, for the obvious reason that if they were not, some scumbag idiots would come along and try to do harm to them, thinking they were somehow morally justified.
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Celtic_Anthony
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#33
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(Original post by thisisyesterday)
Wasn't the UK age of criminal responsibility lowered because of this case? Or am I thinking of something else?
I dunno about other UK legal systems, but the Scots Law age of 8 comes from the common law.
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CLF
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#34
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i dont think they should be protected. i think in cases like this the uk should be like america and bring in the death sentence. its disgusting. at the age of 10, course you're still a child but you know the difference between right and wrong and they must've known that what they were doing was wrong, disgusting and plain psychotic. they dont deserve to even live a **** life where they have to hide their identity and be careful about who they talk to.

one of the boys recently had a child. the woman doesnt know who he really is. that in itself is sick. the woman deserves to know whose child she's bringing into the world.
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emilyjane_09
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#35
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(Original post by -WhySoSerious?)
are you serious? it's ******* disgusting...
Yes, of course it's disgusting. I have a two year old brother; my anger and sheer hatred is what makes me think that these boys should be protected. Imagine thousands of angry people tracking down these boys?
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jonny23563
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#36
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i think in cases like this the uk should be like america and bring in the death sentence
Please don't start the death sentence debate. We know it's wrong, now let's stop it here and now.
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thisisyesterday
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#37
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(Original post by Norfolkadam)
a) I think the phrase "millions" is waaaay out of proportion, there are plenty of people all around the UK who are under police protection. I actually think that it is money well spent to protect our system of justice and the police would have to protect them much, much more if their identities were known.
Yeah I just googled it and got differing figures. The most reliable looking one I could find was this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...es-443957.html

So you might be right there.

(Original post by Norfolkadam)
b) It is very unlikely that they would commit a crime as henous as this and not have gone through a massive level of psychological assesment before being allowed out of prison. If they are deemed to be safe to be set free then they are safe enough to be able to have childeren. I am a firm believer that people change, especially from when they were so young.
I agree that they should be allowed to be protected - but this point is the one thing that kinda holds me back.. I don't doubt that they are safe enough to have children - but essentially, I could meet one of them tomorrow, fall in love with him (under his new identity), and plan to live my life with him, having no idea who he is or what he did. Would I not have the right to know? I mean, we all have a past.. but this is next level stuff.

(Original post by Norfolkadam)
c) Just because you, personally, feel that 10 years is not long enough it gives you no right whatsoever to dictate any kind of justice. That is for the courts and legal system to decide. We agree to live by this sytem of rules when we live in this nation and so we must abide by them, we can argue and question them but we should not dispense our own justice.
Definitely agree with this. If you are unhappy with the legal system, take it up with them.
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Celtic_Anthony
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#38
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(Original post by CLF)
i dont think they should be protected. i think in cases like this the uk should be like america and bring in the death sentence. its disgusting. at the age of 10, course you're still a child but you know the difference between right and wrong and they must've known that what they were doing was wrong, disgusting and plain psychotic. they dont deserve to even live a **** life where they have to hide their identity and be careful about who they talk to.

one of the boys recently had a child. the woman doesnt know who he really is. that in itself is sick. the woman deserves to know whose child she's bringing into the world.
You'd f***ing execute a ten year old?

They don't even do that in Texas.
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Konnifer
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#39
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Didn't they have horrible upbringings with no morals instilled in them? If this is true, and they were failed by their parents or caregivers, then of course they should be protected.
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Norfolkadam
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#40
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#40
(Original post by thisisyesterday)
I agree that they should be allowed to be protected - but this point is the one thing that kinda holds me back.. I don't doubt that they are safe enough to have children - but essentially, I could meet one of them tomorrow, fall in love with him (under his new identity), and plan to live my life with him, having no idea who he is or what he did. Would I not have the right to know? I mean, we all have a past.. but this is next level stuff.
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If you never found out who is it harming? What you don't know can't hurt you.
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